Who Will Attack Iran and When?

Re: Who Will Attack Iran and When?

Postby SoldiersMum on 07/21/08, 12:19 am

Igmond50 wrote:
"Socialism is the doctrine that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that his life and his work do not belong to him, but belong to society, that the only justification of his existence is his service to society, and that society may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own tribal, collective good."

-  Ayn Rand From
The New Intellectual


This definition applies to socialists, progressives and conservatives...differing only in degree.


Uh, no.  That quote applies to socialists, progressives and communists and to a large portion of the liberals who hide the fact that they are socialist/communist.  There is no conservatism in this quote.  If you think there is, you do not understand what conservatism is.

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Re: Who Will Attack Iran and When?

Postby Igmond50 on 07/21/08, 7:34 am

SoldiersMum wrote:
Igmond50 wrote:
"Socialism is the doctrine that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that his life and his work do not belong to him, but belong to society, that the only justification of his existence is his service to society, and that society may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own tribal, collective good."

-  Ayn Rand From
The New Intellectual


This definition applies to socialists, progressives and conservatives...differing only in degree.


Uh, no.  That quote applies to socialists, progressives and communists and to a large portion of the liberals who hide the fact that they are socialist/communist.  There is no conservatism in this quote.  If you think there is, you do not understand what conservatism is.


A thing is what it does...my asssertion stands on objective fact.


Misdirection is a form of deception in which the attention of an audience is focused on one thing in order to distract its attention from another - Wikipedia
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Re: Who Will Attack Iran and When?

Postby Treeofliberty on 07/21/08, 8:13 am

How about we avoid the stereotypical jump to calling people communists? It makes what I would imagine otherwise intelligent conservatives look, well, crazy. The Red Scare has been over for some time, so I'm not sure you really have to worry about the World Communist Revolution anylonger. And, I could be wrong (acutally, no. No I couldn't), but I'm not sure that the only tenant of Marxism was "we should avoid war."

The difficulties that I'm having with the arguments against the avoidance of war surround the fact some individuals on this forum keep pushing their arguments to extremes. The idea that "all the brown people don't think! They jus want to kill, kill, kill and they'll eat our babies if we don't blow them up" is quite extreme. Someone says, "we should talk first, before we start swinging our big stick," and all of a sudden, he's a nieve, leftist, communist who wants to force your children to get married to gays. An exaggeration of course, but where does it stop? Why can't you take the argument for what it is, at face value, and respond in an intelligent, rational manner that does not resort to ad hominem attacks? What is wrong with discourse?
As the late great Colonel Sanders once said, "I'm too drunk to taste this chicken"
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Re: Who Will Attack Iran and When?

Postby paleocon on 07/21/08, 9:38 am

This forum is supposed to be about a very specific question and it would be great if people kept to these questions.

Do we believe an attack on Iran's nuclear weapons program is imminent?  Who is most likely to carry out such an attack?  Have those parties weighed the costs of acting and not acting?  Are they likely to plan effectively for the consequences of their actions?  How might Iran, Russia, China and Europe react to an attack by different nations?
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Re: Who Will Attack Iran and When?

Postby SoldiersMum on 07/21/08, 11:58 am

paleocon wrote:This forum is supposed to be about a very specific question and it would be great if people kept to these questions.

Do we believe an attack on Iran's nuclear weapons program is imminent?  Who is most likely to carry out such an attack?  Have those parties weighed the costs of acting and not acting?  Are they likely to plan effectively for the consequences of their actions?  How might Iran, Russia, China and Europe react to an attack by different nations?



You are right.  Back on topic everyone.

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Re: Who Will Attack Iran and When?

Postby paleocon on 07/21/08, 1:50 pm

To help get the discussion back on track, let me pose the following hypothetical questions:

Some people have speculated that Israel might attack Iranian weapons installations after the November election but before the change of government in January, 2009.  How might the following nations react?  Would it matter if the attacks by Israel were made by aircraft, or a combination of aircraft and missiles?  Would it matter if Israeli special forces were involved in attacks inside Iran?  Would it change responses if Israeli attacks targeted Iranian national leadership as well as weapons sites?  

China
Russia
Pakistan
Iraq
Saudi Arabia
Afghanistan
Jordan
Egypt
Syria
Gaza - Hamas
West Bank - Palestinian Authority
West Bank - Other
Lebanon - Hizzbollah
Sudan
Yemen
Kuwait
Venezuela
North Korea
Turkey
Germany
France
England
UN
OPEC
Other Nations or Organizations not listed above.  

Can you think about possible military, economic and political responses from those nations or organizations listed above?  

How might Iran react and respond to Israeli air strikes?  

How might the USA respond?  Bush would be in the last two months of his administration.  Would this make him more or less restricted in his response?  Would his response vary depending on whether Obama or McCain were the President Elect?  

There are a lot of potential players on this stage.  They have many options at their disposal.  The possibilities are numerous.
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Re: Who Will Attack Iran and When?

Postby paleocon on 07/24/08, 8:00 pm

This is an interesting article just out from The Heritage Foundation.  Dr. Cohen is one of their better thinkers and this is worth reading.   The last paragraph gives reason to pause.  


The Real World: The Sand is Running Out of the Israeli-Iranian Clock
Ariel Cohen

In March 2009, Russia will deploy modern S-300 long range anti-aircraft missiles in Iran. By June 2009 next year they will become fully operational, as Iranian teams finish training provided by their Russian instructors, a high level Russian source who requested anonymity told the Middle East Times.

According to multiple sources, Iran is likely to produce a nuclear bomb soon, and, given the blood curdling rhetoric of its president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, may use it against Israel.

The deployment of the anti-aircraft shield next spring effectively limits the window in which Israel or the U.S. can conduct an effective aerial campaign aimed at destroying, delaying or crippling  the Iranian nuclear program.

The Islamic Republic will use the long range anti-aircraft system, in addition to the point-defense TOR M-1 short range Russian made system, to protect its nuclear infrastructure, including suspected nuclear weapons facilities, from a potential US or Israeli preventive strike.

The S-300 system, which has a radius of over 90 miles and effective altitudes of about 90,000 feet, is capable of tracking up to 100 targets simultaneously. It is considered one of the best in the world and is amazingly versatile. It is capable of shooting down aircraft, cruise missiles and ballistic missile warheads. The S-300 complements the Tor-M1 air defense missile system, also supplied by Russia. In 2007 Russia delivered 29 Tor-M1s to Iran worth $700 million.

Israel has been very effective in electronic warfare (EW) against Soviet- and Russian-built technologies, including anti-aircraft batteries. In 1982, Israeli Air Force F-16s smashed the Syrian anti-aircraft missiles in the Bekaa Valley and within Syria, allowing Israel full air superiority over Syria and Lebanon. As a result, Syria lost over 80 planes, one third of its air force, in two days, while Israel lost one obsolete ground support A-4 Skyhawk to ground fire.

In 1981, Israeli F-15s and F-16s flew undetected over Jordan and Saudi Arabia on their mission to destroy Saddam Hussein’s Osirak reactor.

More recently, Israeli Air Force surprised the Syrians when they destroyed an alleged nuclear facility in the North East of the country in September 2007, apparently flying undetected to and from the mission.

However, the mission over Iran, if and when decided upon, is very different than operations over neighboring Syria.

First, if Israel waits till next March, there may be a new boss at the White House, a boss who emphasizes diplomacy over military operations. Even if the Bush Administration allows Israel the over-flight of Iraqi air space and aerial refueling, a putative Obama Administration might not, opting for an “aggressive diplomacy” approach instead.

Second, Israel, military experts say, does not have long range bomber capacity, such as the Cold War era US B-1 heavy supersonic bomber, or the B-2 stealth bomber. Israel, a Russian source estimates, can hit 20 targets simultaneously, while the Iranian nuclear program may have as many as 100. Many of the Iranian targets are fortified, and will require bunker busters.

If Israel chooses to engage in a bombing campaign, it may decide to conduct several waves of air raids, to make sure that targets are destroyed. As Iranian retaliation is all but certain, it may target not only the nuclear program, but also its means of delivery, including Shahab 3 intermediate range ballistic missiles, which are capable of hitting Israel. Many in the Middle East will publicly denounce Israel, while quietly thanking Jerusalem for doing a job that needed to be done, as they did after Osirak was destroyed.

And Israel may have a way to prevent a retaliation by taking the Iranian oil terminal at Kharg Island “hostage”. A former US military source with targeting experience says that Kharg Island ships 80 percent of Iran’s oil. Its loss to Israeli bombing would leave Teheran with no revenue for a long time to come. If Iran launches rockets against Tel Aviv, Israel may bomb not only Teheran, but destroy Kharg Island as well.

Operational challenges abound. Israel’s EW planes, needed to suppress anti-aircraft batteries, are slow and unarmed, and could become a target for Iranian anti-aircraft missiles or even fighter sorties. But the most important question analysts are asking is whether the current Israeli leadership has the knowledge and the gumption to pull it off. After all, the results of the 2006 mini-war against Hezbollah were disastrous for Israel, and the Israeli Defense Forces have exposed numerous flaws in its preparedness, supply chain, and command, control, communications and intelligence.

Moreover, the recent prisoner exchange between Israel and Hezbollah demonstrated a lack of strategic vision and understanding previously unprecedented for the Jewish state: exchanging live terrorists for dead bodies sent a signal that Israel is weak and can be kicked. It was a sign that the current Israeli leadership is strategically blind, deaf, and dumb. It is not with the current leadership that Israel should go to war with the emerging regional superpower, Iran.

Nevertheless, the temptation to preemptively defang Teheran may prove irresistible in view of Teheran’s hatred and intransigence. As noted by Professor Stephen Blank of the U.S. Army War College,

“When one is dealing with a national leadership which is motivated by the ethnic and religious hatred ,one needs to remember that such a leadership becomes obsessed and loses its ability to calculate things. They may risk war rather than seek accommodation. This was not only the case with Nazi Germany, but also with the antebellum American South of the 1840s and 1850s, where racial hatred of the slave owners cause them to lose sight of what was at stake.

Blank goes on to conclude that the Iranian leadership believes that Russia and China will provide them with protection, of which the S-300 is an important component, and that the sanctions are not effective.

As this analysis demonstrates, under the circumstances, the Israel-only preventive bombing campaign – without the U.S. -- may be too risky to pull off. If U.S. sits this crisis out, Israel may settle for deterring Iran by taking its cities and main oil facilities hostage. This was known during the Cold War as Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) brought to you courtesy of Iran’s Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei and President Ahmadinejad. Going MAD would make the Middle East even more fragile than it already is, and would make life of its inhabitants ever more difficult and tragic.

Ariel Cohen, Ph.D., is Senior Research Fellow at the Heritage Foundation
Last edited by paleocon on 07/24/08, 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who Will Attack Iran and When?

Postby watcher on 07/24/08, 11:00 pm

Great article. Once again history can be valuable at predicting possibilities in the future.
I have to wonder if Israel is really that ill-prepared.  Feigning incompetence on one level may ultimately provide you with the asset of greater surprise when you attempt what is now not expected.
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Re: Who Will Attack Iran and When?

Postby paleocon on 07/24/08, 11:24 pm

watcher wrote:I have to wonder if Israel is really that ill-prepared.  Feigning incompetence on one level may ultimately provide you with the asset of greater surprise when you attempt what is now not expected.


I don't know if it is a matter of being ill-prepared as much as simply not being able to afford all the air assets that would be necessary to strike a hundred targets while performing air defense suppression missions at the same time.  

We can deliver a lot of ordnance on target at one time through B-52s, B1s, and B2s.  We have the F-15s, F-16s, and some F-22s as well as Navy F/A-18s in large quantities.  We can put a lot of aircraft over different targets at once.  

The Israelis have only about 100 F-15s and 300 F-16s.  They also have about 50 F-4s.  They have nothing like our strategic bombers.  But, they can't afford to commit all these aircraft to a strike as they have to keep something home in case one of their neighbors decides to do something nasty.  

Let's say they could mount a 100 or even 150 aircraft strike.  That pretty much means they have 50 aircraft to perform air defense suppression and 100 aircraft to strike installations.  That means every aircraft must be right on target and that one aircraft can destroy the target.  There is literally no margin for error.
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Re: Who Will Attack Iran and When?

Postby watcher on 07/25/08, 12:15 am

My son told me about how the Iranian Revolutionary Guard is spreading out across the country to start a suppression of the citizens. [I’ll have to find out how he came by that knowledge.] That makes me wonder if Iran is afraid of air strikes. This is an old war tactic of putting your military people amongst the civilians’ seams to be an Islamic specialty of protecting the fighting force. They expect hits on infrastructure targets but feel confident that there will be no blanket strikes.
The Israelis are pretty savvy when it comes to survival. I would make a bet that they have a few things that we do not know about.
As far as their firepower I agree there is no room for error and there is always error. That is why I think that the US will not be able to stand down on this.  No matter how it starts Iran has to be neutralized for good. Anything short only delays the use of nuclear weapons later. How this can be done without causing major loss of life is the problem. When you don’t have a lot of fighters you cannot be as neat with your hits. Fast and heavy equals more people die.


Something I have wondered about and haven’t taken the time to check into is what happened to all of Iraq’s warplanes that they flew to Iran before we invaded in 2003. They are obliviously old but if Iran still has them and they can still fly them that is more planes in their favor.
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