Regardless of whether you call it the "war on terror" or "desert storm 2" or the "american-iraq war", here's why I think THIS war is wrong.  I'm looking for people that can (logically) refute my statements.

1. First and foremost, the American people do not support this war.  This is easily proven by the numbers.  What small collection of soldiers we have are on their second, third, fourth tours of duty.  They are given very little rest.  The non-fighting American people have not alleviated their burden by enlisting - nor have they pushed for a draft - even though this means that the folks that have been doing the heavy lifting for the last 7 years will continue to carry the full brunt of the war for an undetermined amount of time.

2. The willingness to allow the same soldiers to fight - without providing any support in the form of a draft - shows that those that are NOT fighting are either:
    a. believers in the war that are cowards
    b. non-believers in the war.

3. Although I do believe that, in general, no one WANTS to go off and fight - and possibly die - for their country, the American people WILL DO SO when they feel it is the right thing to do.  Because of this, I believe that the majority of people do NOT fall into (2a) above.  Rather, I believe that the majority fall under (2b) above.

4. Because of the inherent unfairness and immorality of forcing soldiers into two, three, four tours of duty, I believe that those that speak out AGAINST the war are the only real, non-fighting, Christianity-practicing heroes.  In turn, those that speak out FOR the war but do not fight, I see as morally-indefensible chickenhawks.  Finally, those that either believe in the war and are fighting - and those that are fighting because they are simply following the chain of military command, I view somewhere between heroes and pawns of leaders that have never served.  They have my undying gratitude.

Please show me where I am wrong in the above.

I thought Obama brought all the troops home already.

So much for Hope.....

PackerFan wrote:I thought Obama brought all the troops home already.

So much for Hope.....

Come on folks!  This post has been here for 3 days - there must be someone here who can explain to me why this war is right...?

As a veteran of three wars to include OIF, I can explain. Especially since I am a former member of the intelligence community with high clearance, I know virtually everything about this war.

The peoblem with soldiers is there simply aren't enough of them. The liberal media and the American people refuse to serve this country. The young and their parents prefer to die in drug deals gone bad, or car accidents in America for no reason than to serve their country. The American people are spineless on mass and deserve the fate they have coming. I am going to sit a watch with pop corn.

Iraq war was simply a convenient stunt pulled by Al Quiada to remove Saddam Hussein. The Gulf War to liberate Kuwait, which I served in, was confined to liberating Kuwait by UN agreement to leave Saddam Hussein in power, DELIBERATELY.

This time we went in with intelligence fed to the US by Al Quiada, to convince the US to remove him from power, because the Islamic world could not do it themselves. The reason was counter to the orginal reason because in the Gulf War, the International community left Saddam Hussein in power because of the treachery he had committed against his neighbors. See, as long as Saddam was in power Iraq could not be used to reunite the Islamic world. The Islamic fundamentalist see Baghdad as the second holliest region of Islam and Baghdad is recognized as the Seat of power for Islam, like Washington DC is the capital of the US, so is Baghdad for Islam.

The decomratization of Baghdad is a denial tool to the fundamentalist of Islam so Baghdad cannot be used to reunite Islam under the Sharia Law. The reunification of Islam is what Europe fears most because that would bring about a fourth world war and lead to a lot more deaths. Islam is convinced and projected manifest destiny to convert the PLANET EARTH to Islam by all means possible to include genocide. Islamic warriors believe it is the devine right of soldiers of Islam to kill infadels by as large numbers as humanly possible. This is a culture of grass roots murders that eclipse all previous monster throughout human history. Islam will not end the Jihad against the west, the is no negotitations to peace, and there will be no peace on Earth until Islam has converted the planet to Islam.

Now, it was Iraq that explained everthing to us in the US intelligence community. However, this also told us that we have to destroy all Islamic states to secure peace. We knew going into Iraq that we didn't have enough troops, and upon realizing the scope of the problem we would never have enough troops to fight this war. So the US came up with the next best end game solution, which was democratization of Iraq. That would preserve the Islamic division and prevent further wars outside the Middle East. The bases for this idea is simple, the best fighters against Islam are Islamic fighters who want peace now.

a1kjl wrote:The peoblem with soldiers is there simply aren't enough of them. The liberal media and the American people refuse to serve this country. The young and their parents prefer to die in drug deals gone bad, or car accidents in America for no reason than to serve their country. The American people are spineless on mass and deserve the fate they have coming. I am going to sit a watch with pop corn.

OK.  This conflicts with my point above - that Americans WILL serve when they feel the war is moral/justified.  I'm remembering (perhaps falsely) how many people enlisted after 9/11 to go after the Taliban/Al-Queda in Afghanistan.  Even my most liberal friends felt we were justified going into Afghanistan.  I remember the country - the world - as being united about Afghanistan - until the president tried to tie 9/11 to Saddam - but this getting away from the point.

Do you really feel that Americans refuse to serve their country in times of need?  You sound a little down - so I don't know how serious you are being above.  Don't you think it's possible that the American people just don't want to serve in this *particular* war - because they know it's wrong?  That's my belief.

Did you feel this way when you enlisted?  Or is this something that you came to believe over the course of your tour(s)?  Thanks for serving.

Saddam was as evil as they come.  His two sons were following right in their dad's footsteps.  They slaughtered their on people, invaded Kuwait - and made no secret of their hatred of Israel and the USA.

I am not a soothsayer, but there is not doubt that removing this unbalanced family of despots was in the future best interest of Iraq, the middle east, and our country.

dittohead wrote:Saddam was as evil as they come.  His two sons were following right in their dad's footsteps.  They slaughtered their on people, invaded Kuwait - and made no secret of their hatred of Israel and the USA.

I am not a soothsayer, but there is not doubt that removing this unbalanced family of despots was in the future best interest of Iraq, the middle east, and our country.

This has nothing to do with refuting my points above.  I *agree* with you that Saddam and his children were as evil as they come.  Now explain to me how going to war against him with such a small number of soldiers and a country that believed the war was morally wrong was the right thing to do.

wayback2002 wrote:

a1kjl wrote:The peoblem with soldiers is there simply aren't enough of them. The liberal media and the American people refuse to serve this country. The young and their parents prefer to die in drug deals gone bad, or car accidents in America for no reason than to serve their country. The American people are spineless on mass and deserve the fate they have coming. I am going to sit a watch with pop corn.

OK.  This conflicts with my point above - that Americans WILL serve when they feel the war is moral/justified.  I'm remembering (perhaps falsely) how many people enlisted after 9/11 to go after the Taliban/Al-Queda in Afghanistan.  Even my most liberal friends felt we were justified going into Afghanistan.  I remember the country - the world - as being united about Afghanistan - until the president tried to tie 9/11 to Saddam - but this getting away from the point.

Do you really feel that Americans refuse to serve their country in times of need?  You sound a little down - so I don't know how serious you are being above.  Don't you think it's possible that the American people just don't want to serve in this *particular* war - because they know it's wrong?  That's my belief.

Did you feel this way when you enlisted?  Or is this something that you came to believe over the course of your tour(s)?  Thanks for serving.

I like the idea about morally justified. I wonder is survival a morally justifiable cause?


Your intution serves you well, I am currently suffering depression because I am a double Masters Graduate who has dropped my price in half and I still cannot find a job. as for Americans not wanting to serve in this war, that is not about choice. A rape victim does not have a choice to do everything in her power to defend herself. The truth is war is always WRONG. I have served in three of them and hate war more than you can ever comprehend in a thousand lives. I even gave away my weapons. But I know Islam now having studied it for years. They will never stop killing Americans. Year after year they will destroy our cities and taking our lives until there are no more cities and no more lives to take because they earnestly believe it is there manifest destiny to convert the EARTH to Islam by any and all means available. They non-confederated armies like Hezbalah, Hamas, the Taliban, Al Qiada have all stated in public statements, they will except only unconditional surrender, no negotiated peace with Israel, the west and the US. They now have nukes.

The US President has proven to be so spineless that North Korea has openly declared war on the US and the planet earth. (lol) What does it mean when a leader rises to power and your enemies are all of a sudden inspired to attack? The international scene is getting worse. Obama's deplomatic plan, economic plan are as good as the Gitmo plan. Obama ran a brilliant campaign to become President, and then what? He has no idea and the advisors he has surrounded himself with are rediculous. They make Bush 43 look brilliant, which I believe tatimont to a miracle.

I have come to feel this way only in this last 6 months. The US was not in this much trouble when Bush left. Every expert spelled it out that had we done nothing, the economic recovery would already be in place. As for Americans, I grew to feel this way during my third war. The enlistment fell off the map during Iraq. Americans simply stopped serving this nation as a quiet protest, which I respect, but I don't like.

I am seriously afraid that our streets will become bloody like the rest of the world because of the tyranny that has befallen the US. Obama has no intention of relinguishing power. The left is moving to over throw the government and they are the ones in power. The 2010 elections will be paramount. I expect the administration to use ACORN as a scapegoat to justify terminating elections until election fraud can be fixed. That will spell the end to all of our rights as Americans and humans. The Iranian elections were obviously fraudulant and the Obama Administration is not saying anything because ACORN is still sitting in his pocket as an ace to be used later. The American people are not just blind, ill informed, they are in a coma. If I could, I would do as Einstein did in 1933 and leave the US for safe shores.

You will not want to be here in America when reality sets in with 306 million heavily armed, pist off Americans, homeless, jobless, and broke decide to take to the streets. There is no army, no police force, nothing on earth powerfull enough to put that kind of nightmare down. My problem is I know way too much.

a1kjl wrote:

wayback2002 wrote:

a1kjl wrote:The peoblem with soldiers is there simply aren't enough of them. The liberal media and the American people refuse to serve this country. The young and their parents prefer to die in drug deals gone bad, or car accidents in America for no reason than to serve their country. The American people are spineless on mass and deserve the fate they have coming. I am going to sit a watch with pop corn.

OK.  This conflicts with my point above - that Americans WILL serve when they feel the war is moral/justified.  I'm remembering (perhaps falsely) how many people enlisted after 9/11 to go after the Taliban/Al-Queda in Afghanistan.  Even my most liberal friends felt we were justified going into Afghanistan.  I remember the country - the world - as being united about Afghanistan - until the president tried to tie 9/11 to Saddam - but this getting away from the point.

Do you really feel that Americans refuse to serve their country in times of need?  You sound a little down - so I don't know how serious you are being above.  Don't you think it's possible that the American people just don't want to serve in this *particular* war - because they know it's wrong?  That's my belief.

Did you feel this way when you enlisted?  Or is this something that you came to believe over the course of your tour(s)?  Thanks for serving.

I like the idea about morally justified. I wonder is survival a morally justifiable cause?


Your intution serves you well, I am currently suffering depression because I am a double Masters Graduate who has dropped my price in half and I still cannot find a job. as for Americans not wanting to serve in this war, that is not about choice. A rape victim does not have a choice to do everything in her power to defend herself. The truth is war is always WRONG. I have served in three of them and hate war more than you can ever comprehend in a thousand lives. I even gave away my weapons. But I know Islam now having studied it for years. They will never stop killing Americans. Year after year they will destroy our cities and taking our lives until there are no more cities and no more lives to take because they earnestly believe it is there manifest destiny to convert the EARTH to Islam by any and all means available. They non-confederated armies like Hezbalah, Hamas, the Taliban, Al Qiada have all stated in public statements, they will except only unconditional surrender, no negotiated peace with Israel, the west and the US. They now have nukes.

The US President has proven to be so spineless that North Korea has openly declared war on the US and the planet earth. (lol) What does it mean when a leader rises to power and your enemies are all of a sudden inspired to attack? The international scene is getting worse. Obama's deplomatic plan, economic plan are as good as the Gitmo plan. Obama ran a brilliant campaign to become President, and then what? He has no idea and the advisors he has surrounded himself with are rediculous. They make Bush 43 look brilliant, which I believe tatimont to a miracle.

I have come to feel this way only in this last 6 months. The US was not in this much trouble when Bush left. Every expert spelled it out that had we done nothing, the economic recovery would already be in place. As for Americans, I grew to feel this way during my third war. The enlistment fell off the map during Iraq. Americans simply stopped serving this nation as a quiet protest, which I respect, but I don't like.

I am seriously afraid that our streets will become bloody like the rest of the world because of the tyranny that has befallen the US. Obama has no intention of relinguishing power. The left is moving to over throw the government and they are the ones in power. The 2010 elections will be paramount. I expect the administration to use ACORN as a scapegoat to justify terminating elections until election fraud can be fixed. That will spell the end to all of our rights as Americans and humans. The Iranian elections were obviously fraudulant and the Obama Administration is not saying anything because ACORN is still sitting in his pocket as an ace to be used later. The American people are not just blind, ill informed, they are in a coma. If I could, I would do as Einstein did in 1933 and leave the US for safe shores.

You will not want to be here in America when reality sets in with 306 million heavily armed, pist off Americans, homeless, jobless, and broke decide to take to the streets. There is no army, no police force, nothing on earth powerfull enough to put that kind of nightmare down. My problem is I know way too much.

I'm sorry things are bad for you on the job front.  I, too, am worried about my job.  This country needs to start *making* things again.  We have been sold out my big business and the politicians that have moved so many of our jobs overseas - but I'm getting off point.

I, respectfully, disagree with you on Islam.  Although the religion of Islam *is* more "warlike" that Judism or Christianity, in the end the Muslim people are human beings first.  It's a small minority of Muslims that will give their lives killing others for their ideology - just as it's a small minority of Americans, Christians, Pro-lifers, Eco-terrorists, etc - that will give their lives for their ideology.  The rest of us just want to be happy, have decent jobs, and take care of our families.  We're always going to have crazies around that settle their problems with guns - but we can't let these people define who we are.

Thanks for your service.

To wayback..............
wb---------Regardless of whether you call it the "war on terror" or "desert storm 2" or the "american-iraq war", here's why I think THIS war is wrong.  I'm looking for people that can (logically) refute my statements.

It doesn't matter what you or I think insofar as to the 'correctness' of the war. Neither you nor I are privy to any intel used/gleaned from as justification for the war. I would also say this if it were a Democrat CIC prosecuting a war. So that's one staement refuted.

wb---1. First and foremost, the American people do not support this war.

So what? Not liking the war is not a reason for the POTUS to abstain from fighting it. Second staement refuted.

wb----  What small collection of soldiers we have are on their second, third, fourth tours of duty.  They are given very little rest.  The non-fighting American people have not alleviated their burden by enlisting - nor have they pushed for a draft - even though this means that the folks that have been doing the heavy lifting for the last 7 years will continue to carry the full brunt of the war for an undetermined amount of time.

So let's see if I have this straight. You disapprove of the war but would like everyone to enlist to fight it. Basically you have a mouthful of sour grapes about the war and are essentially chiding those who haven't fought if they back the war. Pay real close attention. Those who are fighting ENLISTED! Not drafted. Now they knew what the military is about and they chose to join. Third statement refuted.
wb-----2. The willingness to allow the same soldiers to fight - without providing any support in the form of a draft - shows that those that are NOT fighting are either:
    a. believers in the war that are cowards
    b. non-believers in the war.

Make up my mind WB. You want this war to be fought or you don't. Now you want people drafted if they approve of the war because .....????? You want them 'punished'? Why are you so vindictive? Fourth statement refuted.

wb--------3. Although I do believe that, in general, no one WANTS to go off and fight - and possibly die - for their country, the American people WILL DO SO when they feel it is the right thing to do.  Because of this, I believe that the majority of people do NOT fall into (2a) above.  Rather, I believe that the majority fall under (2b) above.

Too bad wb. You don't make the rules thankfully. You think that the American people are smart enough to make those types of decisions? Look who the people put in the WH!! I rest my case. Fifth statement refuted.

wb------4. Because of the inherent unfairness and immorality of forcing soldiers into two, three, four tours of duty, I believe that those that speak out AGAINST the war are the only real, non-fighting, Christianity-practicing heroes.  In turn, those that speak out FOR the war but do not fight, I see as morally-indefensible chickenhawks.

You're a profile in cowardice wb.  In your weak mind you claim that you're a fighter if you speak out against those fighting in Iraq but a coward if you speak out in defense of the troops mission. How long have you been such a spineless cretin? Sixth statement refuted.

wb------------Finally, those that either believe in the war and are fighting - and those that are fighting because they are simply following the chain of military command, I view somewhere between heroes and pawns of leaders that have never served.  They have my undying gratitude.

What a pile of crap. Get some guts and at least be consistent in your maligning of our military without the patronization. Seventh statement refuted.

wb--------Please show me where I am wrong in the above.

Already answered. Deal with it.