itsover wrote:To wayback..............
wb---------Regardless of whether you call it the "war on terror" or "desert storm 2" or the "american-iraq war", here's why I think THIS war is wrong.  I'm looking for people that can (logically) refute my statements.

It doesn't matter what you or I think insofar as to the 'correctness' of the war. Neither you nor I are privy to any intel used/gleaned from as justification for the war. I would also say this if it were a Democrat CIC prosecuting a war. So that's one staement refuted.

It may not matter what you or I think about the correctness of the war.  But it does matter what the majority of Americans think about the war since they will be doing the fighting.  You say you have refutted one of my arguments above - but I don't see which one.

itsover wrote:wb---1. First and foremost, the American people do not support this war.

So what? Not liking the war is not a reason for the POTUS to abstain from fighting it. Second staement refuted.

OK.  You're not refutting anything - you're just disagreeing.  I am making the argument that the American people don't support the war and that this is shown by the fact the enlistments are down so bad and that nobody is really clamboring for news from Iraq.

itsover wrote:wb----  What small collection of soldiers we have are on their second, third, fourth tours of duty.  They are given very little rest.  The non-fighting American people have not alleviated their burden by enlisting - nor have they pushed for a draft - even though this means that the folks that have been doing the heavy lifting for the last 7 years will continue to carry the full brunt of the war for an undetermined amount of time.

So let's see if I have this straight. You disapprove of the war but would like everyone to enlist to fight it. Basically you have a mouthful of sour grapes about the war and are essentially chiding those who haven't fought if they back the war. Pay real close attention. Those who are fighting ENLISTED! Not drafted. Now they knew what the military is about and they chose to join. Third statement refuted.

No.  I'm not saying everyone should go out and enlist - nor am I saying that people should NOT go out and enlist.  I'm saying that they HAVE not gone out and enlisted.  I'm saying that people have already voted with their feet by not enlisting.

itsover wrote:wb-----2. The willingness to allow the same soldiers to fight - without providing any support in the form of a draft - shows that those that are NOT fighting are either:
    a. believers in the war that are cowards
    b. non-believers in the war.

Make up my mind WB. You want this war to be fought or you don't. Now you want people drafted if they approve of the war because .....????? You want them 'punished'? Why are you so vindictive? Fourth statement refuted.

This isn't about my feelings.  I'm making a logical argument that this particular war is wrong.  It's clear we need more troops - but we haven't instituted a draft.  Why is that?  Because our leadership knows that we wouldn't never support it.  Why is that?  Because most people find it immoral.  I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I want people who approve of the war to be drafted...

itsover wrote:wb--------3. Although I do believe that, in general, no one WANTS to go off and fight - and possibly die - for their country, the American people WILL DO SO when they feel it is the right thing to do.  Because of this, I believe that the majority of people do NOT fall into (2a) above.  Rather, I believe that the majority fall under (2b) above.

Too bad wb. You don't make the rules thankfully. You think that the American people are smart enough to make those types of decisions? Look who the people put in the WH!! I rest my case. Fifth statement refuted.

They put George W in the WH - twice.  Are you saying that they were smart enough then but suddenly lost their smarts?  Are you saying that the American people shouldn't be allowed to make tough decisions?

itsover wrote:wb------4. Because of the inherent unfairness and immorality of forcing soldiers into two, three, four tours of duty, I believe that those that speak out AGAINST the war are the only real, non-fighting, Christianity-practicing heroes.  In turn, those that speak out FOR the war but do not fight, I see as morally-indefensible chickenhawks.

You're a profile in cowardice wb.  In your weak mind you claim that you're a fighter if you speak out against those fighting in Iraq but a coward if you speak out in defense of the troops mission. How long have you been such a spineless cretin? Sixth statement refuted.

Do I believe that all the dope-smoking hippies that speak out against the war are heroes?  No, I don't.  Do I believe that all the folks out there that have never done anything to help their country before but just love to complain are heroes?  No.  Do I believe that someone who has truly thought about both sides of an issue and has then, against the prevailing power in Washington, stepped forward for ridicule by the MSM so that they can say something that they believe is a hero?  Yes.  Now that the majority of people are freely admitting that the Iraq war was a mistake there is nothing heroic about saying so.

itsover wrote:wb------------Finally, those that either believe in the war and are fighting - and those that are fighting because they are simply following the chain of military command, I view somewhere between heroes and pawns of leaders that have never served.  They have my undying gratitude.

What a pile of crap. Get some guts and at least be consistent in your maligning of our military without the patronization. Seventh statement refuted.

My argument is pretty simple.  I'm having a hard time understanding your logic.  Your argument appears to be that it doesn't matter what the majority of the population thinks about a particular war - even if this has a major impact on our ability to fight it and win it.  But, unless you have a dictatorship (which we don't) or a draft (which we don't) to ensure that you have enought troops to fight and win a particular war, you are obliged to convince your population that it is in their best interests to fight - hearts and minds.  Clearly we have failed to do that.

Again, please show me where I am wrong in the above.

Finally, your response had a lot of invective in it.  You don't know me.  Please try to dial it back.  I'm trying to make a logical argument - not an emotional one.

Hamas, Hezbola, Al Qeada, and the Taliban have all statements from thier leaders that the Holy Jihad against Israel, the US is a war and the only acceptible end of the war for the Islamic people will be the unconditional surrender and destruction of the west, and Israel.

The war will continue until the American people are dead, their way of life is no more, Israel is removed from the face of the earth and the Jewish people are extinct. These are the words from the mouths of the Islamic war mongers pushing the continuing genocide of free peoples everywhere to include africa, south west asia, and the continuing stress in europe.

We keep arguing over whether or not we should be fighting this war, but what no American seems to grasp is that we don't have a choice. They will continue the war until we are dead, and the Liberals of America are supporting the Islamic war effort. We have already lost because our President is supporting the ISlamic war against America. He has authorized the greatest jail break in history. He (our President) has crippled our intelligence community and our national defenses.

If you believe this war is wrong, congratulations, you are an honorary member of Islam advocating the genocide of billions of innocent men, women and children.

a1kjl wrote:Hamas, Hezbola, Al Qeada, and the Taliban have all statements from thier leaders that the Holy Jihad against Israel, the US is a war and the only acceptible end of the war for the Islamic people will be the unconditional surrender and destruction of the west, and Israel.

The war will continue until the American people are dead, their way of life is no more, Israel is removed from the face of the earth and the Jewish people are extinct. These are the words from the mouths of the Islamic war mongers pushing the continuing genocide of free peoples everywhere to include africa, south west asia, and the continuing stress in europe.

We keep arguing over whether or not we should be fighting this war, but what no American seems to grasp is that we don't have a choice. They will continue the war until we are dead, and the Liberals of America are supporting the Islamic war effort. We have already lost because our President is supporting the ISlamic war against America. He has authorized the greatest jail break in history. He (our President) has crippled our intelligence community and our national defenses.

If you believe this war is wrong, congratulations, you are an honorary member of Islam advocating the genocide of billions of innocent men, women and children.

A1 , I do agree that Islam world wants our  destruction  along with Isreal. My problem with our way of fighting them will not work.

Everyday about 100,000 Islamic people are being born , if 1% turn out to be  ham-hez-al q-taliban , thats 1000 born everyday. We can't keep up at that rate. Its like trying to kill the people in China , they are being born much faster than we kill them.

These people have no money. They get their money to feed their familys and fight us from the OIL rich nations. The weapons they are using cost a lot of money , as we know their lives to them are not worth much .

If the western world ( developed nations ) would ALL start building thousands of NUKE power plants---switch cars to natural gas--use more solar were possible.  

This would shut off their money flow and about 90% of the AH'S would have to go back to herding goats along with the SAUDIA'S. Get oil back to about $10/ B.

This would take care of Iran at the same time.  You could plot the the price of oil with the acts of terror and they would  more than likley overlap. These people ( oil producers ) get their money from the developed nations. To hell with them.

They hate us now --always have ---always will. Let them be poor while they hate us.

We all know that 90% of 9-11 were Saudia's. Russia is missing about 95 " suitcase nukes ". I wonder who had the money to buy them from the Russian Generals . I did learn in college that " money is power ".

I would get out of all the middle east--take ALL weapons or distory them--leave nothing.

The Kurds are the only ones worth saving. They seem to be the only ones that will fight for freedom.

Exmil,
I have to agree with you on the complexity and challenge we face. I also don't like the idea of being the worlds police force as this President seeks to reduce the image or impression of the crisis we face. I also agree with your idea about the Kurds, but I can tell you that Turkey is not a fan of the Kurds.

I also agree with your idea about how to deal with the problem. However, too many liberal pacifists exist in the US who believe as Hermit Dave does that "Evil Does NOt Exist." Unfortunately, I believe that we have no choice but to wait for the enemy to stick another bomb under our lazy butts to get these lazy good for nothing Americans moving again. Thankfully, we have a new President who is accellerating the likelihood of another attack as he contributes to the Islamic war effort. At least someone is a patroit, even if they are patriots for the enemy.

a1kjl wrote:Exmil,
I have to agree with you on the complexity and challenge we face. I also don't like the idea of being the worlds police force as this President seeks to reduce the image or impression of the crisis we face. I also agree with your idea about the Kurds, but I can tell you that Turkey is not a fan of the Kurds.

I also agree with your idea about how to deal with the problem. However, too many liberal pacifists exist in the US who believe as Hermit Dave does that "Evil Does NOt Exist." Unfortunately, I believe that we have no choice but to wait for the enemy to stick another bomb under our lazy butts to get these lazy good for nothing Americans moving again. Thankfully, we have a new President who is accellerating the likelihood of another attack as he contributes to the Islamic war effort. At least someone is a patroit, even if they are patriots for the enemy.

I have to disagree with both of you on some basic things here.  You are correct that there are many Muslims that would like to see America and Isreal destroyed.  However, they are not the entire Muslim world - they are not a majority.  I've met many people around the world - many people - and most of them (not all) are decent people that just want to be left alone and make sure their children have better lives than they do.  Yes, there are crazies - some of them right here in the US.  You haven't met Americans that would like to see Iraq, Syria, Iran, etc - wiped from the face of the Earth?  Really?  I've met many of them - most of them in church.  Am I saying that there are more Americans than Middle Easterners like this?  No I am not.  All of these people that run around with their vitriol - saying that we have to be afraid of this group of people or that group of people (and getting paid handsomely to say it) whether they are from America, Iraq, Iran, etc - fail to realize that they are cut from the same cloth - *exactly* the same cloth.  They are just plain afraid.

Wayback2002,
Have you read the Koran? Have you ever been in the Middle East? All citizens of Islam are required by the Koran to provide spiritual, material, and all forms of support to Islamic fighters, and they are subject to the death penalty for failing to provide that support. Why do you think the Iraqi people suffered so many losses. The civilian losses in Iraq are well over 1 million lives lost. 99% of those losses were committed by insurgents who took offense that these followers of Islam were cooperating with US forces.

But I bet you believe the liberal media that the US is responsible for all this. Well, I do believe the US has a role in responsibity, but only in the indirect manner. Islamic fighters and insurgents are self determinant.

I don't believe the Iraq War is wrong but I do believe the Afghanistan surge is wrong.  Prez Obama is escalating the Afghanistan War and the libs are going yeah, yippee.  There is no doubt in my mind that we will be losing alot more of our military now than we lost in Iraq.  We won the Iraq was but the way Prez Obama is handling it, the insurgents are just going to return and take the country back into a bloodbath.  Our Prez doesn't know what he's doing and his allegiance for our enemies is very detrimental to our freedom and the freedom of people around the world.   It will not be surprising to find him to be the despot that Hugo Chavez is.  HRJ 5 revoking the 22nd Amendment and Presidential Term Limits will be the thing that puts it over the top.

SoldiersMum wrote:I don't believe the Iraq War is wrong but I do believe the Afghanistan surge is wrong.  Prez Obama is escalating the Afghanistan War and the libs are going yeah, yippee.  There is no doubt in my mind that we will be losing alot more of our military now than we lost in Iraq.  We won the Iraq was but the way Prez Obama is handling it, the insurgents are just going to return and take the country back into a bloodbath.  Our Prez doesn't know what he's doing and his allegiance for our enemies is very detrimental to our freedom and the freedom of people around the world.   It will not be surprising to find him to be the despot that Hugo Chavez is.  HRJ 5 revoking the 22nd Amendment and Presidential Term Limits will be the thing that puts it over the top.

I don't know what we won in Iraq , the country was a beat country after the gulf war, which i agreed with. It looks like the only thing we won was -- the right to pass out $5 billion in food stamps every month --pay for their complete goverment and military. The whole country is on welfare .

We had a no fly zone to where they were boxed in , if they turned their radar on us we took it out.

I don't like to spout numbers when talking about GI death's but there is no way we will lose as many GI'S in Afghanistan as we did in Iraq ( for nothing ).

I would get out of Afghanistan also. In both countries i would leave nothing ( military wise ) when we leave. Not even our Embassy  or a bullet.

Oh Mum , BTW there were no insurgents in Iraq before we arrived. We drew them in like a magnet. I think according to our goverment there were only WMD'S there .

I guess they all wanted 7 virgins.

Exmil,

I was there when we went in to Iraq, I was part of the senior echelon for intelligence. The Afghanistan front was an empty shell game left for the US by Al Qeada and the Tahliban. We realized that if we are to give the Islamic fighters a front to fight in, we would need another. There were too many wholes in our intelligence and understanding of the enemy. We needed to put a war front down in their backyard so they would stop coming to the US and attacking us here.

Now I realize everyone is upset about the 4000 American Soldiers who died for this country. But no one has paid attention to the Iraq civilian losses. Had we not gone into Iraq, those Iraqi civilian losses would have been American civilian losses, because the Islamic insurgents wanted to bring the war to the US. By setting up tents in Iraq, they didn't have so far to travel.

No one recalls the 11 airliners that were stopred out of Millasia and the Phillippines being hijacked in 2004 for destinations on the west coast? There were countless other attacks that our intelligence community stopped during the course of this war because we found out about them from their supporters in Iraq and Afghanistan and Pakistan. The whole point was to stop the war effort but we needed to find out what the war effort of Islam was. They set up shop in the US and trained in the US to exectue 9/11. We then realized that Islamic fundamentalists were setting up shops everywhere, in every country. This became a world war fast, but the US kept it down to just two states. We had other resources, in the Phillippines, Malasia, India, China, all of Europe, all of Africa, and of course the Middle East. Why do you think we were low on man power in Iraq? Have you forgotten Etheopia, Samolia, Sudan, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebenon? We had great success in Lybia, because not only were we set to add that state to the invasion list, Lybia was working with AQ Khan on Nuclear weapons. Oh, Yea did you forget about AQ Khan who was distributing throughout the Middle East to all buyers the means to make Nuclear weapons.

You are stuck on the media's interpretation of the war and it is not the whole picture. 9/11 was a wake up call and the ants nest we discovered was everywhere. We are not out of the this mess yet. Obama has re-energized our enemy and provided them a badly needed reprive from our intelligence community who has successfully shut them down upto now. The war will return to the US soon and you won't have to cry over soldiers funeral long, soon you can cry over American men, women and children, the prefered targets of our enemies.

The only thing wrong wring about this war is the American peoples incompitence in supporting the The Islamic war front by not supporting the US. So, long as you are opposed to the US efforts to defend the American people, you are supporting our enemies in killing the American people. Whether or not you believe me or like the cut and dry reality I describe is of no consequence. Reality will explain it to you the hard way some day. I just pray you survive the tutorial. Mother nature is not one who supports human rights, except the right to die.

Like i said , these people that hate us need MONEY to do anything.

The bad countries are the one funding their operations.

W/O money they would be throwing rocks or  firing AK'S.

Cut off their money. Even if there were 500,000 that hate us in the middle east and want us dead it takes 100's of millions of dollars to fund their operations.

Saudia Arabia sells 5 million b/o a day at 60$/ba===300 million $/ day.

The avg Islam that hates us can't afford a prayer mat , let alone moving around the world trying to blow us up.

President Eisenhower was so correct when he said " beware of the Miitary Industrial complex ".

Drive the price of oil down to $10/ba and we win.