Drilling in ANWR

Re: Drilling in ANWR

Postby paleocon on 06/16/08, 11:51 am

Antisoros wrote:? I'd rather "Big Oil" be able to drill all 2000 acres in ANWR than have the government own the land and refuse to let the land be used, which is the situation now.

There's also a bunch of oil in the Rockies, the liberals won't let ANY oil be drilled. But the REAL culprit for the high cost of gas is the commodity brokers, who keep bidding it up and our dependence on OPEC. It costs them less than two dollars to make a barrel of oil that's selling on the futures market for over $134/barrel.


There is clearly some odd forces at work in the oil market.  I suspect speculation is playing a part but generally, speculation is defeated by real information outside of the short-term.  In otherwords, speculation can create a bubble for a short time but eventually accurate information caused the bubble to implode.  

The Heritage Foundation (great folks) have an interesting article on how state-run oil companies are much less efficient than private companies in extracting oil and how such companies are actually failing to maintain their infrastructure and are thus underproducing according to their historic production levels.  Huge surprise, right?  

Read the article here.

The Saudi's are indicating they will increase production.  Others may follow suit.  But, they can stop just as quickly as they start should they change their minds.  That may be enough to pop any bubble due to speculation.  But, I don't think speculation is the only source of oil price increases.
He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire.
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery."
(http://www.myspace.com/paleocon)
User avatar
paleocon
 
Posts: 1973
Joined: 12/01/07, 6:02 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: Drilling in ANWR

Postby watcher on 06/17/08, 12:03 pm

paleocon wrote:There is clearly some odd forces at work in the oil market.  I suspect speculation is playing a part but generally, speculation is defeated by real information outside of the short-term.  In otherwords, speculation can create a bubble for a short time but eventually accurate information caused the bubble to implode.  


I think the odd forcers at work are just a little too odd.
I would like to see the names of the speculators.  How many of them don't care about 'the real information'.  They have an a set goal, to destroy this counrtry, and they have found that oil is a great first start. They have the funds to build the bubble and since they do not care about the profits are not concerned about accurate information breaking the bubble.  It is my understanding, limited as it is, that speculators do not fall under the same SEC rules as the rest of the market does.
Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains taken to bring it to light
George Washington in Letter to Charles M. Thruston August 10, 1794

No man's life, liberty or fortune is safe while our legislature is in session.
Benjamin Franklin
watcher
 
Posts: 237
Joined: 06/08/08, 2:37 pm

Re: Drilling in ANWR

Postby paleocon on 06/17/08, 12:25 pm

The factors that appear to be at work are (in no particular order):


  • Increased demand (although there do not appear to be shortages anywhere)
  • Speculation in the oil futures market
  • Decrease in the value of the dollar
  • Output below actual production capacity (many oil producing nations have in the past or could now produce more than oil than they do presently)

Of course, I don't know where the speculation takes place.  I assume there are several markets and that not all of them are in the US and therefore not subject to any US laws or regulations.  Therefore, I am not sure we can know who is doiong what at any given time.  

There may be other factors.
He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire.
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery."
(http://www.myspace.com/paleocon)
User avatar
paleocon
 
Posts: 1973
Joined: 12/01/07, 6:02 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: Drilling in ANWR

Postby SoldiersMum on 06/17/08, 12:51 pm

While I was trolling around reading stuff this morning, I came upon a piece saying the Dems are talking about taking over the oil companies and socializing them.  I can't find the article so I can't provide a link.  When I find it again, I'll put the link on here.

Maxine Waters declared it on the floor of the Congress when they were grilling the oil executives.  I wouldn't be surprised if she actually let the cat out of the bag and that this is their plan.   I mean..Nancy Pelosi in 2006 said elect us and we'll bring the price of gas down, but there isn't any plan and there hasn't been any lowering of the prices.  In fact, they have risen nearly two dollars since the socialists took the majority.

Plutarch warned, "The real destroyer of the liberties of the people is he who spreads among them bounties, donations and benefits."
User avatar
SoldiersMum
Moderator
 
Posts: 1759
Joined: 09/22/07, 1:05 am
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Drilling in ANWR

Postby mtb63 on 06/18/08, 10:46 am

Supply isn't the problem people. There is plenty of crude oil being pumped out of the ground right now. There is plenty of gasoline to fill all the gas stations. Do you see any gas stations that have "Out of Gas" signs? No. The reason is because there is plenty of gas. Drilling for more will just put that oil into the same supply system that is broken. Just like mortgage speculators that milk every last dollar out of figurative wealth, oil speculators drive up the price and reap wealth at our expense. Oil companys say drill for more oil and the price will go down. The price will not go down because of that. Speculators will just suck more money out of oil that may - or may not - even come out of the ground. By the time we are done going down this path of unresticted oil drilling we will have turned our America the beautifiul into America the oil-derrickful.

We're too late to start drilling now. Our children might see some reduction in oil prices by the time that oil reaches the market - not us. I agree with the thought of a "ManhattanProject, or Apollo Project" call to arms. I'll tell you what, John McCain won't be the one delivering it. It might not even be Obama. Fact is the way our media is controlled - it most likely won't happen at all. We are stuck with petrolium for a while and that's a fact. We should be looking at finding alternatives though. Money spent to drill oil in some of the most remote wilderness on the planet could be better spent on inventing a new type of carborator that makes gasoline powered vehicles get 100 miles per gallon. That, by itself, woould solve the problem; and in less time.
mtb63
 
Posts: 6
Joined: 06/18/08, 10:08 am

Re: Drilling in ANWR

Postby paleocon on 06/18/08, 11:00 am

Wow, you have just turned economics on its head.  More supply equals higher prices!  Care to explain that?  

Care to explain how the "broken supply system" manages to provide "plenty of gasoline to fill all the gast stations?"  

Novel theories here.
He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire.
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery."
(http://www.myspace.com/paleocon)
User avatar
paleocon
 
Posts: 1973
Joined: 12/01/07, 6:02 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: Drilling in ANWR

Postby mtb63 on 06/18/08, 11:32 am

Well, smart -and sarcastic, guy, explain why there is no gas shortage and yet, lo and behold, gas prices are $4.00 plus a gallon. Yeah demand is up, but for the most part OPEC has said they can keep up with anticipated demand indefinately. No, I'm no ecconomist but I can tell a bad deal when I see one. We're getting hosed by someone if there is plenty of gas to go around. If we start looking now for a better way to power our vehicles it, reduces our dependence on oil (foriegn or domestic), reduces the cost of fuel, and puts less pollution into the air - a triple win for our country.
mtb63
 
Posts: 6
Joined: 06/18/08, 10:08 am

Re: Drilling in ANWR

Postby paleocon on 06/18/08, 11:47 am

mtb63 wrote:Well, smart -and sarcastic, guy, explain why there is no gas shortage and yet, lo and behold, gas prices are $4.00 plus a gallon. Yeah demand is up, but for the most part OPEC has said they can keep up with anticipated demand indefinately. No, I'm no ecconomist but I can tell a bad deal when I see one. We're getting hosed by someone if there is plenty of gas to go around. If we start looking now for a better way to power our vehicles it, reduces our dependence on oil (foriegn or domestic), reduces the cost of fuel, and puts less pollution into the air - a triple win for our country.


I don't have to explain why there is no shortage.  I have neve said there was one.  OPEC has never said they can keep up with demand indefinitely.  How do you support that statement?  OPEC has production limits based on pumping infrastructure and proven reserves.  

We have been looking for "better ways" to power our vehicles.  So far, any real solution is 10 to 15 years away.  

You never answered my questions from your original post.  

Explain how increased supply makes prices go up?  
Explain how the supply and distribution system is broken but manages to supply our needs?  

You said it.  Now explain or retract it.
He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire.
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery."
(http://www.myspace.com/paleocon)
User avatar
paleocon
 
Posts: 1973
Joined: 12/01/07, 6:02 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: Drilling in ANWR

Postby mtb63 on 06/18/08, 2:45 pm

What I'm saying is you could drill for more oil - but it won't have an immediate impact on today's price. Lessening the demand (therefore making more refined gas available) will lower the price quicker.

Here' a link to a National Geograhic story about supply:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... gas_2.html

Retract, I don't think so. This story is all about supply and there's plenty of oil out there right now. Refinement? That's a different question. Could we refine more oil? Yes. But who wants a new refinery in their back yard - where do you live - do you want to build a new, smelly refinery there?

So you want to drill oil on our coasts, in our forests? Why not in our cities and populated areas? Where do you draw the line? Is everything fairgame for drilling? Is no land safe from the drill? Let's say you set up rig up and dowwn the east coast of the US - are you advocating that? Do you care for nothing other than filling your tank with gasoline? My point is we need to chnage our way of life. Let's get this monkey off our back that was put there by large oil and automobile companys.
Last edited by mtb63 on 06/18/08, 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mtb63
 
Posts: 6
Joined: 06/18/08, 10:08 am

Re: Drilling in ANWR

Postby paleocon on 06/18/08, 2:50 pm

The following article is an interesting explanation of speculation in the oil markets.  It appears that US regulation drove most of these investors off-shore (doing the oil speculation that Americans won't do) to London where we cannot control any of their activities.  

Driving the practice offshore was obviously an unintended consequence of regulation.  The US government wanted more control over speculation so they regulated it and drove it to the UK where the US government could not control it at all.  

With 5% margins a few speculators can have a huge impact on the futures market.  A million dollar investment gets you 20 million in oil futures.  A million dollars of oil futures is 7500 barrels of oil at $135/barrel.  With that in mind, $58,050,000 could buy 10% of all the oil produced in the entire world on a given day.  There are a lot of people or entities that can move $60 million on a regular basis.  

Low margins mean there is huge potential to manipulate the market by a small number of speculators on a given day.   And these low margins increases the probability of another artificial bubble that will eventually burst and cause another financial or investment crisis!  The last institutional investors holding oil futures could get crushed when the bubble eventually bursts.   This would lead to yet another financial crisis for the economy with demands on the US government for another bailout!  

The price of the futures contracts get bid up and up over time and eventually bear no relationship to the actual cost of extracting the actual oil.  It becomes a huge ponzi scheme where getting in and out at the right time makes you very wealthy.   Messing up costs you a lot of money but it costs the world another financial crisis.  

Dick Morris' Political Insider
Oil Prices Looming Over Election
Wednesday, June 18, 2008 8:09 AM
By: Dick Morris & Eileen McGann  

Gas prices are the first important issue in the 2008 elections. But both parties have been pathetic in their solutions and, one suspects, in their understanding of what is going on.

Fadel Gheit, managing director of oil and gas research for Oppenheimer and Co. and Jim Norman, author of the book "The Oil Card," coming out next month, say that speculation is responsible for a huge part of the run-up in prices.

The growing demand for oil by India and China and the instability of oil supplies certainly account for much of the increase. But the recent spike, they say, is equally due to the weakness of the dollar and massive speculation.

They argue that oil prices are, indeed, determined by supply and demand — not only the supply and demand for oil, but also the supply and demand for oil futures. (Oil futures are a commitment to buy 1,000 barrels of oil at a certain date at a certain price.)

Formerly, most of the investments in oil futures came from energy companies. The federal Commodities Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) sharply limited investments by those outside the business, to prevent precisely the kind of speculation now gripping the market.

But when the stock market slowed down in 2000–2002, outside investors decided to speculate in oil futures. The new players were institutional investors like corporate and government pension funds, sovereign wealth funds, university endowments and other investors, guided by brokerage firms like Morgan, Stanley, and Goldman, Sachs.

To avoid the CFTC caps, these investors moved their operations to London, setting up the International Commodities Exchange (ICE). Now, they can buy all the oil futures they want.

Michael W. Masters, of Masters Capital Management, told Congress that the volume of investment in commodities futures soared from $13 billion at the end of 2003 to $260 billion in March of 2008.

After a while, the CFTC rescinded its limits on how much speculators could buy as long as they went through special “swap” desks at the major brokerage houses.

You can buy oil futures for only 5 percent down on margin, a bargain considering the 50 percent margin requirement for stock market equity investments. Because the margin requirement on oil futures rises as the due date approaches, few investors actually end up buying the oil, they just roll over their investments.

So the willingness of sellers to unload their oil futures and buyers to acquire them sets up its own market of supply and demand which has more to do with determining the actual price of oil than even the global demand and supply for the product itself.

Masters told Congress, on May 20 of this year: “commodities futures prices are the benchmark for the prices of actual physical commodities, so when index speculators drive futures prices higher, the effects are felt immediately in spot prices and the real economy. So there is a direct link between commodities futures prices and the prices your constituents are paying for essential goods.”

Gheit and Norman suggest that the CFTC regulate the domestic oil futures market (NYMEX) and the participation of U.S. companies in the ICE, restoring the caps on the amount of oil futures speculators can buy. Gheit also urges raising margin requirements for them.

Both worry that the oil futures bubble is going to burst and cost a lot of investors — particularly pension funds who channel their investments through the swap desks of the brokerage houses. We don’t need another subprime or S&L crisis on our hands right now.

The Senate recently tried to force CFTC regulation of all commodities speculators but the bill was loaded down with a windfall profits tax so the Republicans killed it.

McCain needs to get with this program. In his town hall meeting in New York City last Thursday night, he attacked speculators for driving up oil prices but didn’t propose remedies or really explain the problem. Americans will pay close attention if he does. For McCain this is the issue and now is the time to use it.

© 2008 Newsmax. All rights reserved.



Link:  http://www.newsmax.com/morris/oil_price ... 05469.html
He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire.
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery."
(http://www.myspace.com/paleocon)
User avatar
paleocon
 
Posts: 1973
Joined: 12/01/07, 6:02 pm
Location: Virginia

PreviousNext

Return to Breaking News