Book Review: Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War

Book Review: Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War

Postby mosesgunner on 06/13/08, 3:49 am

Book Review: Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War: How Britain Lost Its Empire and the West Lost the World, by Patrick J. Buchanan. Published by Crown Publishers, 2008.

Doesanyone else ever get the impression that Pat Buchanan, in his role as aconservative pundit and writer, is somehow trying to be an antiquatedversion of a modern shock-jock? He seems to always be saying or writingsomething that is calculated to elicit strong reaction. A case in pointis his conversation with Dennis Miller the other day on Dennis' radioshow. Buchanan was on the show, of course, in order to hawk his newbook.

Allowme to point out that I was driving while I was listening, so I may havenot have caught every nuanced detail of the conversation between Dennisand Buchanan. But I got the impression that Pat thought that the Jewshad a pretty good life in pre-World War II Germany right up untilKristallnacht (You will recall that Kristallnacht was the night ofNovember 9-10, 1938, when Nazis, in response to the assassination ofThird Secretary Ernst vom Rath by a Jew, assaulted hundreds of Jews,killed scores by lynching, burned synagogues, and looted shopsthroughout Jewish communities.). Buchanan's assertion left Dennisnearly speechless with incredulity.

Ofcourse, Buchanan's controversial remarks had their desired effect: Ipurchased and read his new book. After reading the book, I have come tothe conclusion that either Buchanan did not accurately communicate hisposition on the Dennis Miller show, or I misunderstood him. Theposition that Buchanan takes in Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War concerningKristallnacht and the German treatment of Jews before and during WorldWar II is as follows: While Jews were certainly mistreated in a Germanyruled by Hitler, the first time that they were actually killed wasKristallnacht. Jewish genocide did not occur in Germany until after theoutbreak of World War II hostilities, and so, according to Buchanan'slogic, the holocaust would never have occurred if Churchill had notinsisted on going to war over Hitler's invasion of Poland.
  Iwas discussing this book with my son, who quickly pointed out theill-informed nature of Buchanan's thinking. He pointed out thatgenocide is never an event that suddenly occurs when it's perpetratorswake up one morning and decide to immediately begin killing members ofan offending race or ethnicity. Indeed, there is a well-documented,eight-stage process in the move towards genocide and this process hasbeen identified by Gregory Stanton, president of Genocide Watch. Theeight stages are classification, symbolization, dehumanization,organization, polarization, preparation, extermination, and denial. Iwill not go into the detailed explanation of each of these stages here.You can look at the explanations on the Genocide Watch web site.But there can be no doubt that long before Kristallnacht, and longbefore Germany's invasion of Poland, Hitler's Germany had alreadycompleted the first six stages of the genocide process. Hitler neededonly the confusion of a war to cover his completion of the final twostages. Buchanan's theory, that the holocaust might have been avoidedif Britain had not honored their commitment to Poland, is justill-informed, pollyannaish thinking.

Furtherto the issue of Germany's invasion of Poland, Buchanan makes thestatement that, “Had Britain not given the war guarantee, and notdeclared war over Poland, Western Europe might have avoided waraltogether.” There is something to be considered in what Buchanan says.We know that Hitler had plans to invade Russia, for he candidly statedhis intentions in Mein Kampf. It is quite possible that, withPoland as his launching pad, Hitler would have gone to war with Russia,and Western Europe may have been spared. But if Hitler were fighting asingle-front war with Russia, and had no worries about bombing England,nor fears of being harassed on a daily basis by American and Englishbombers, nor need to divert resources for building and manning u-boatsto deal with the American and English navies, is it not just as apossible that Hitler would have been victorious in Russia despite thecruel winter, and in addition, would have been successful in developinga nuclear bomb and jet fighters and bombers? As it turns out,Wellington's words at Waterloo could be equally applied here: “it was anear run thing.” The Germans were very close to having a nuclear bomband very close to having jet-propelled planes when they were defeated,and I think that Western Europe would indeed have been a very differentplace had Hitler been successful in developing those two tools of war,but the difference would not have been what Buchanan naively envisions.I would suggest that in avoiding war, Western Europe would have assuredHitler's success and their own future enslavement.

Buchananbecomes even more pollyannaish, if that is possible, when he discussesthe Anglo-Japanese Treaty of 1902. In 1922, England decided to forgorenewing this alliance with Japan, and England's decision was largelyas a result of pressure from the United States. Buchanan agrees withhistorian Arthur Herman when he says, “Only naval ties with Britainkept Japan on a course of propriety and rule of law, and constrainedit's thirst for empire.” Prior to England's decision against renewingtheir treaty, Japan's thirst for empire had not been constrained inKorea, Taiwan, Manchuria, the Liaodong Peninsula, the Marshall Islands,the Caroline Islands, and the Mariana Islands. It is naïve to thinkthat a piece of paper was going to constrain Japan's thirst for anempire which would eventually include China, Singapore, Hong Kong, thePhilippine Islands, Southeast Asia, Indonesia, Borneo, Maylaya,Sarawak, and New Guinea. Up until 1942, Japan's thirst for empire wasnever constrained by anything other than a lack of time and theresources, and after 1942 their thirst was constrained by Alliedforces. In his headlong effort to discredit Churchill, Buchananattempts to place far too much importance on the Anglo-Japanese treaty.

Andto be sure, Buchanan's main goal in writing his book is to disabusepeople of the notion of the greatness of Winston Churchill. In theopening lines of the book, Buchanan says, “There has arisen amongAmerica's elite a Churchill cult.” I am not certain that the admirationof Churchill has achieved cult status, but I understand Buchanan'spoint.

Churchillhas taken on something of almost a mythic status, and is revered as agreat leader. I believe that much of Churchill's elevated status is dueto Martin Gilbert's book, Churchill: A Life, published in1991. I know that a great deal of my personal opinion was based uponGilbert's book, and now that I have read Buchanan's book, I realizethat Gilbert's book can be more accurately described as an homage,rather than an objective historical account. Gilbert presented all ofthe positive and very little of the negative aspects of Churchill'scharacter. Buchanan's book is significant in that it provides a morerealistic picture of Churchill. No one can doubt Churchill's oratoryskills, nor his leadership skills. He was fearless. But Buchanandocuments the many errors in judgment, the irrational prejudices, andthe poor decision-making of Churchill. After reading this book, myopinion of Churchill has changed greatly.

ButI would caution the reader in approaching Buchanan's work as objective,as his isolationist biases are prevalent throughout. He writes the bookas a strong invective against Churchill with the objective of pointingout that President Bush, like Churchill, is trying to make the worldsafe for democracy. In Buchanan's isolationist perspective, the worldneeds to be safe for America, and democracy for the countries of theMiddle East should be no concern of America's. In referring to thecurrent Iraqi war, Buchanan states that the “Churchill cult gave us ourpresent calamity.”

Iam not certain that Buchanan's isolationist viewpoint is all bad. Thereis certainly something to be said for the idea of American blood beingshed only in the protection of America. Many of us have wondered aboutthe wisdom of America's involvement in places like Somalia, Bosnia, andLebanon. Others of us have further wondered about our non-involvementin Darfur, and about our current deployment of Marines in thePhilippine island of Mindanao. I think that Buchanan's isolationistperspective may be just a bit too glib, but I also admit that it hasit's appeal.

In spite of the Buchanan bias, Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War isa well-written, thoroughly-documented book that provides a freshperspective on the causes of World War II. I highly recommend the book.
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Re: Book Review: Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War

Postby paleocon on 06/14/08, 8:50 am

Buchanan and Victor Davis Hanson have gotten into a tiff over the book and evidently their personal distaste for one another comes through clear in Hanson's review and Buchanan's very personal response.

Hanson's Review

Buchanan's Response

As I said in an earlier post in another topic, "Buchanan is not always wrong. But, when he is not wrong he is usually only partially right. I enjoy reading him for no other reason than he is provocative and makes me think about where and why he is so often so wrong."

Frankly I am simply more willing to trust what Hanson writes.  Buchanan has several axes to grind and a few drums to beat.  I'd rather read history that presented facts and not fanciful opinion masquerading as such.  I may skim his book if I can get it at the local library for free but I won't be supporting Pat's axe grinding business with my hard earned money.
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Re: Book Review: Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War

Postby paleocon on 06/27/08, 5:31 pm

The battle between Hanson and Buchanan continues.   Perhaps this exercise will teach Buchanan to avoid attacking his intellectual superiors in the future.  

June 16, 2008
Reply to Patrick J. Buchanan
Pseudo-Historian, Very Real Dissimulator
by Victor Davis Hanson

Patrick J. Buchanan got upset that I wrote a column about the World War II revisionists, especially his book, and that of Nicholson Baker’s on the allied “crimes” of bombing German cities. I produce his column by paragraph and then comment in brackets.

In attacking my book “Churchill, Hitler and ‘The Unnecessary War’: How Britain Lost Its Empire and the West Lost the World,” Victor Davis Hanson, the court historian of the neoconservatives, charges me with “rewriting … facts” and showing “ingratitude” to American and British soldiers who fought World Wars I and II.

[In dealing with Mr. Buchanan, one must accept at the beginning two caveats. First, as is his style, he will always resort to ad hominem attacks in lieu of an argument. Thus note at the very beginning his sneering “court historian of the neoconservatives.”

Second, Buchanan unfortunately is neither a reliable journalist nor an historian, and thus simply cannot be trusted to report accurately what is written. He says I charge him with “rewriting… facts” (note those convenient three dots). I did not charge him with rewriting facts, but simply advancing a thesis contrary to them: “Questioning the past is a good thing, but rewriting it contrary to facts is quite another.” (emphasis added)

And I didn’t just criticize Buchanan’s book, but in a brief 750 word newspaper column lumped it together with the novelist Nicholson Baker’s (Human Smoke) equally critical attack on the allies in World War II — both as signs of the sorry state of historical revisionism that has sprung up in the climate of the Iraq war.

Writing a book whose theme is that the allies, and especially the British, unwisely and unduly pressured Hitler, and therefore were culpable for much of the carnage of World War II, again, does not “rewrite… facts”, but simply ignores them. And, yes, it does indeed serve to lessen the enormous sacrifices that American and British soldiers endured to stop a monstrosity like National Socialism, whose doctrine of racial hatred and territorial expansion logically led to a German government attacking by 1940 most of its neighbors, to the east, west, north and south, and eventually, in industrial fashion, murdering 6 million Jews.

Much of Hitler’s madness was outlined well in advance in Mein Kampf. By the late 1930s his harsh treatment of the Jews was a harbinger of things to come, once his own power was consolidated and Germany free from outside objection.]

Both charges are false, and transparently so.

Hanson cites not a single fact I got wrong and ignores the fact that the book is dedicated to my mother’s four brothers who fought in World War II. Moreover, the book begins by celebrating the greatness of the British nation and heroism of its soldier-sons.

[Within a 350-word critique devoted to the theme of his book, I cited his misreading of the Versailles Treaty (see below), and his special pleading that serves to exculpate Hitler’s Nazi government. Again, the thesis of Buchanan’s’ book is not based on facts, but can only be advanced by contradicting them. And it has a disturbing habit of mechanically at times praising those who are his natural targets—or supposedly naive victims—of the book, as if that allows him to further denigrate their wisdom and sacrifice.]

Did Hanson even read it?

[Unfortunately I did read it, and was appalled by his absence of logic—hence the column.]

The focus of “The Unnecessary War” is on the colossal blunders by British statesmen that reduced Britain from the greatest empire since Rome into an island dependency of the United States in three decades. It is a cautionary tale, written for America, which is treading the same path Britain trod in the early 20th century.

[This is as ludicrous as it is disingenuous. By 1939 the British Empire was in financial straits, its global economic position long displaced by the industrial power and growing population of the United States, and its empire an increasing economic drain. Its so-called decline had begun at the end of the nineteenth century, and was confirmed, not created, by World War II. Despite the cast-off and occasional warning about Hitler’s cruelty, the book accepts that there was nothing intrinsic within National Socialism as practiced under Hitler that would necessarily have led to war, and indeed a number of legitimate grievances that would justify Hitler’s own preemptive wars.]

Hanson agrees the Versailles Treaty of 1919 was “flawed,” but says Germany had it coming, for the harsh peace the Germans imposed on France in 1871 and Russia in 1918.

Certainly, the amputation of Alsace-Lorraine by Bismarck’s Germany was a blunder that engendered French hatred and a passion for revenge. But does Teutonic stupidity in 1871 justify British stupidity in 1919?

[Again, Buchanan misleads. I wrote that Versailles was less harsh than the treaties imposed on the defeated by Germany — and less harsh than what Germany had planned for the allies. 1871 was not a matter of “Teutonic stupidity”, but the logical result of German aggression and carefully thought-out punishment.]

Is that what history teaches, Hanson?

[Again, Buchanan is not truthful. I argued the problem was not Versailles, but the inability or the unwillingness of the allies to promote and foster German postwar democracy, occupy the country and thereby remind the German people that they had not been “stabbed in the back” in foreign territory, but militarily defeated on the battlefield and in full retreat when their generals sued for peace. That would have had a powerful effect in reminding the German people that neither Jews nor socialists had caused their defeat, but the madness of invading France, and the futility of fighting Russia, France, Britain, Italy, and the United States all at once.]

In 1918, Germany accepted an armistice on Wilson’s 14 Points, laid down her arms and surrendered her High Seas Fleet.

Yet, once disarmed, Germany was subjected to a starvation blockade, denied the right to fish in the Baltic Sea, and saw all her colonies and private property therein confiscated by British, French and Japanese imperialists, in naked violation of Wilson’s 14 Points.

Germans, Austrians and Hungarians by the millions were then consigned to Belgium, France, Italy, Serbia, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Poland and Lithuania, in violation of the principle of self-determination.

Germany was sliced in half, dismembered, disarmed, saddled with unpayable debt and forced, under threat of further starvation and invasion, to confess she alone was morally responsible for the war and all its devastation — which was a lie, and the Allies knew it.

[France, Britain, and Italy did not accept the 14 Points, and thus it was never an official allied position. Germany knew that when it discovered that Wilson could not speak for the allies, given the late entry of the United States into an ongoing allied effort. Germany lost two large slices of territory, about 13 percent of it European landmass, land once annexed from France by its invasion of 1870, and areas in what would become Poland that had been annexed by Prussia during the aggrandizement and long unification of the Germany. Much, though not all, of the returned territory had been won through coercion by imperial Germany in a series of wars, and was given back following plebiscites. As I wrote, the treaty was “flawed” by our modern sensibilities, but by the standards of the times, far less punitive than what Germany herself customarily demanded from the defeated. France did not invade Germany in 1870, 1914, or 1940, but by May 1940 found itself for the third time in seventy years with a German army advancing on Paris.]

Where was Hitler born?
“At Versailles,” replied Lady Astor.

[Buchanan’s citation of the quip of the aristocratic hostess Nancy Witcher Langhorne as an authority on Versailles is revealing and gives his game away — a woman known for her virulent anti-Semitism, pro-Hitler appeasement, and close correspondence with another kindred soul in Ambassador Joseph Kennedy. Her slurs about Czechoslovakian refugees, prejudice toward Catholics, lunatic pronouncements on slavery and blacks, and reprehensible slanders of British soldiers proved her to be unhinged — but apparently earns a citation of wisdom from Buchanan.]

As for the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk Germany imposed on Russia in 1918, is Hanson aware that the prison house of nations for which he wails, which was forced to disgorge Finland, the Baltic republics, Poland, Ukraine and the Caucasus, was ruled by Bolsheviks?

Was it a war crime for the Kaiser to break up Lenin’s evil empire?

[This is surreal and reveals Buchanan’s lack of even a simple grasp of history. Lenin had been in power for a little over a few weeks when negotiations with Germany began in November and December 1917 — and only a few months when the treaty was signed in March 1918. His “evil empire” was in fact the centuries-long imperial Russia of the Tsars. Yes, imperial Germany did want Russia to “disgorge” land — so that it in turn might gorge upon them. That’s why the Kaiser seized much of the Ukraine, the Baltic States, and Belarus. Many on Buchanan’s list of free states “disgorged” in fact in the last year of the war came under sway of the German empire as virtual dependencies.

In short, Germany demanded and until defeated got its hands on a great deal of Russian territory, ninety percent of her coal, and much of Russian industry — a greed that severely hampered its efforts to transfer manpower and material to the Western front in 1918. Note that Buchanan omits my mention of Germany’s plans for Western Europe in the event of its victory, which we know from post-World War II archives would have made the Versailles treaty tame in comparison.]

Two years after Brest-Litovsk, Churchill himself was urging Britain to revise Versailles, bring Germany into the Allied fold and intervene in Russia’s civil war — against Lenin and Trotsky.

[Now Buchanan is praising the Churchill he serially damns as the fool who had prompted World War II. What Churchill was trying to do was exactly what I stated in my essay — incorporate Germany into the family of Western nations — something impossible not because of Versailles, but because a defeated German army in November 1918 retreated from foreign territory and reentered the fatherland, promulgating the myth that it had never been beaten, when in fact it was within days of annihilation by an advancing allied army that included over a million American soldiers.]

As for my thesis that the British war guarantee to Poland of March 31, 1939, was the “Fatal Blunder” that guaranteed World War II and brought down the British Empire, Hanson is mocking:
“Buchanan argues that, had the imperialist Winston Churchill not pushed poor Hitler into a corner, he would have never invaded Poland in 1939, which triggered an unnecessary Allied response.”

First, Hanson should get his prime ministers straight. It was Neville Chamberlain who issued the war guarantee to Poland after the collapse of his Munich accord. Churchill was not even in the Cabinet.

[Buchanan, again, cannot honestly reproduce quoted material. Pace Buchanan, note that I did not write “Prime Minister” Churchill — and for precisely the reason that he was not Prime Minister in September 1939 when Germany invaded Poland. But the very reason that the British turned to the “imperialist” Churchill in extremis in May 1940 was because he was on record in the British Parliament and in public life since 1932 for restoring British military preparedness, and, from at least 1936, enlightening British naïve rightists about the sinister nature of Hitler’s National Socialism. Yet Churchill is the veritable villain of Buchanan’s book, not the maniacal Hitler.]

Second, Hansen implies that I portray Hitler as a misunderstood victim. This is mendacious. Hitler’s foul crimes are fully related.

[(a) Hanson, not Hansen. (b) Hitler’s crimes are mentioned in the customary Buchanan disclaimer fashion; but if they were “fully related,” they would make it impossible to empathize with a psychopath whose polices ended logically in the Holocaust.]

Third, was it moral, Hanson, for Britain to promise the Poles military aid they could not and did not deliver, thus steeling Polish resolve to resist Hitler and guaranteeing Poland’s annihilation?

[Now this is a strange contortion. The Poles were already steeled since they had known first hand German aggrandizement since 1914, had seen what Hitler had done in the Rhineland, Austria, and Czechoslovakia, and knew well the futility of appeasement. A militarily weak Britain and morally bankrupt France are to be faulted for not attacking in the West in September 1939, but applauded for at least declaring war on Hitler and finally apprising him that his aggression would no longer be treated with rhetoric but now with armed resistance. ]

Was it wise, Hanson, for Britain to declare a world war on the strongest nation in Europe over a town, Danzig, where the British prime minister thought Germany had the stronger claim?

[This is ludicrous. Danzig was a mere “town”? In fact, Britain declared war because for years Hitler had serially violated all of its WWI and international agreements, dismembered Czechoslovakia, and revealed the true nature of Nazi global aggrandizement as outlined years before in Mein Kampf.]

What were the consequences for Poland of trusting in Britain?
Crucifixion on a Nazi-Soviet cross, the Katyn massacre of the Polish officer corps, Treblinka and Auschwitz, annihilation of the Home Army, millions of brave Polish dead, half a century of Bolshevik terror.

[This is reprehensible. Now British military weakness is blamed for Auschwitz, rather than the innate sinister nature of Nazism? Does Buchanan believe that had Britain not tried to stop Hitler, the death camps would have never occurred? Does he know of the prewar Nazi precursors to the Final Solution, the geneses of which were clear from Germany’s own treatment of its chronically ill and mentally disturbed?]

And how did Churchill honor Britain’s commitment to Poland?

During trips to Moscow, Churchill bullied the Polish prime minister into ceding to Stalin that half of his country Stalin had gotten from his devil’s pact with Hitler, and yielded to Stalin’s demand for annexation of the Baltic republics and Bolshevik rule of a dozen nations of Eastern and Central Europe.

[Churchill distrusted Stalin, but by 1943 understood that a weak British Empire had no leverage at all against Stalin’s 400 divisions. Again in hindsight Churchill can be made to look illiberal, but given the realities of the times, there was no one more suspicious of the ally Stalin, or more sympathetic to the Poles.]

Was it worth 50 million dead, Hanson, so Stalin, whose victims, as of Sept. 1, 1939, were 1,000 times Hitler’s, could occupy not only Poland, for which Britain went to war, but all of Christian Europe to the Elbe?

[How odd that the allies are indirectly blamed for the Holocaust, as if its seeds were not innate to Nazism. Most credit Stalin with the atrocious crime of killing 20-30 million of his own, versus Hitler’s 6 million. How that translates in “1,000 times” I am not sure — except by the misleading qualifier “by Sept.1 1939.” But here Buchanan engages in hindsight. In 1939, Britain knew of no other means — not political, not diplomatic, not economic — of stopping Hitler from absorbing all of Europe, an agenda of aggression clear from 1936 onward.]

Churchill was right when he told FDR in December 1941 it was “The Unnecessary War” and right again in 1948, when he wrote that, in Stalin, the world now faced “even worse perils” than those of Hitler.

[This is disingenuous. The aggregate of Churchill’s writings make it clear that he felt the war had been unnecessary only on the grounds that he felt, rightly I think, that it could have been prevented by standing up to a then weak Hitler in 1936, which would have humiliated the Nazis and perhaps even led to a change of government or at least a sort of containment of Nazism. And note Churchill’s choice of word “perils.” Churchill did not think, as implied by Buchanan, that Hitler was any less evil than Stalin, only that the Red Army and the resources of the Soviet Union gave it the potential to become far more dangerous than a much smaller Nazi empire.

Both World War II and the Cold War were necessary. And while the Soviet government was a vile and evil entity, millions of Red Army soldiers were not communists, but brave patriots who did much to stop the Wehrmacht, and, yes, by their efforts did save allied lives. Again, they fought for a horrendous government, but the motivation for many was not global communism or Comrade Stalin who had butchered millions of their families and friends, but to rid German soldiers from the soil of Mother Russia.]

So, what had it all been for?

[World War II — forced upon, not the fault of, the allies — was worth it. It ended fascism and Nazism, liberated thousands from death camps and starvation in forced labor compounds, led to a new democratic Europe, prevented the extinction of European Jewry, and reformed a once serially bellicose Germany that had attacked France three times in 70 years. Today’s Europe and Japan are proof of our grandfathers’ achievement.]

Historian Hanson should go back to tutoring undergrads about the Peloponnesian War and the Syracuse Expedition.

[I guess Mr. Buchanan believes that working as a political operative in Richard Nixon’s White House is better training for history than formal study of classical languages and history. I think his ancient Greek citation is a vague reference to my support for the removal of Saddam Hussein and the effort to foster constitutional government in Iraq. But once more, Buchanan reveals his ignorance of history. The Syracuse expedition, as he calls it, was a case of a democratic Athens attacking a larger and democratic Syracuse and its Sicilian allies at a time when its adversary Sparta was not beaten. When I last looked the United States had not expanded its war on radical Islam by invading democratic India.

And the last time I had any notice of Buchanan himself was when his American Conservative magazine asked the so-called “War Nerd” (who once “daydreamed” of burning down my vineyard [which in fact later mysteriously experienced a roadside brushfire], cf. his “Victor Hanson: Portrait of an American Traitor” ) to review A War Like No Other, and wrote an incoherent rant about Iraq rather than the book in question.

I stand by everything I wrote about Patrick J. Buchanan’s book, and find his latest effort further confirmation of his delusional views about both past and present.]

©2008 Victor Davis Hanson


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Re: Book Review: Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War

Postby Manana Domingo on 09/07/08, 11:41 pm

I'm not familiar with Mr. Buchanan's ideas, but I do know that his theories about Churchill and Hitler are not original: I've heard them many times coming from Fascists (real Fascists, not "fascist" as used by liberals).
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Re: Book Review: Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War

Postby TheIndependent on 09/09/08, 9:53 pm

I have come to the conclusion that Paleocons are worthless people. They are the Fringe of the right. They believe in non-reality, they want to believe that you can live in a cocoon  while the world burns around you and that you cannot be burned by the flames.
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Re: Book Review: Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War

Postby seabee on 09/10/08, 5:41 am

the challenge facing revisionism is that dates and events don't conveniently match-up with the story. we must be ever vigil in our watch for spinsters who these days it seems to be pretty-much anyone that publishes.

invasion of poland, september 1939 immediately following the molotov-ribbentrop pact with the soviet union, signed in august that same year and having zero to do with churchill. germany's war with poland took about a month to conclude although parenthetically modern-day american journalists would still be nagging the deceased hitler for a war that never ended but that's those spinsters of ours. earliest traced records of hitler's decision to exterminate european jews and others, december 1941. earliest recorded examples of genocide, soviet union 1942. roughly 500,000 or so jews in that first year. want to put a handle on that image, watch 6 or so football games this sunday and contemplate that when the games end, every single person you saw on tv is no longer with us.

hitler was an adroit politician. he used various factions, mostly social outcasts, as vehicle in his rise and consolidation of power. the chronology of hitler's feelings of jews traces back to mein kampf, arguably sentiments that may have evolved from earlier readings ono martin luther but that's perhaps more speculative. in any event his underlying intents with jews and others would have been difficult to read during his rise to power, he had little political or observable background and his principle message during the rise was simply "change" -- something that was widely greeted with open arms by a then defeated, impoverished, and economically isolated germany.

jews among others were certainly a political scape goat around which his largely outcast followers tightly rallied, but that message was not broadly adopted by the german population. it was understood on some level, certainly, but the average german could not have perceived hitler's a "final solution" -- german's would have put him back in jail where he belonged had they known what hitler was really about.

maybe hitler didn't know what hitler was really about. maybe he overdosed on power, who knows. of maybe genocide was his plan all along. if stalin is any indication hitler was just doing what was in vogue at the time, a recurring theme that dates way back in history. to the first scratching on paper. maybe democracy is correct, i like to think so.

thus we must be ever vigil in our watch on spinsters.
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Re: Book Review: Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War

Postby jnewl on 09/11/08, 11:15 pm

seabee wrote:maybe hitler didn't know what hitler was really about. maybe he overdosed on power, who knows. of maybe genocide was his plan all along. if stalin is any indication hitler was just doing what was in vogue at the time, a recurring theme that dates way back in history.


Oh, come on now. Hitler didn't know what he was about? Hitler knew exactly what he was about. Nazi ideology derives specifically from Darwinism by way of Nietzsche. (There are plenty of quotes available to support this.) The Nazi worldview is the deterministic worldview of Marxist materialism sans the allegedly inevitable class warfare. In the Nazis' view (that is to say, Hitler's view, as set out in his book Mein Kampf--My Struggle--which name he adopted from the subtitle of Darwin's Origin of Species), the different races of men represent various stages in the evolution of the human species. Hitler and the Nazis saw themselves as nothing more nor less than rational, clear-eyed scientists doing nature's bidding by eliminating the less successful, inferior strains of humanity, in favor of their own, the successful, superior one, thereby perfecting the species and making it most fit to rule. They were simply exercising (as they saw it) a courageous and manly "Will to Power" in hurrying the natural process of human and social evolution along by making war upon the weak(er) and sickly.

Thus, while Jews were the first racial group who happened to be targeted (and there may well be links to Luther there; I don't know, since I've not made a special study of it), there's no possibility whatsoever that they would have been the last. Moreover, as is well documented, Jews weren't the only people targeted even at the time. Anyone who stood in the way of the Nazis' will was a target, which included the Catholic Church and its clergy, regardless of race, whose principles were diametrically opposed to theirs, gypsies, who were considered mere takers and parasites, etc.

Anyway, the point here is that what you call "in vogue," seabee, has a more rational (and may I say, less idiotic) explanation than some mere nod to fashion or, as Victor Hansen seems to believe, insanity. The reason Stalin, and Communists in general, are/were mass murdering thugs was/is exactly the same reason Hitler was: Marxist political and social principles derive directly from the biological principles set down by Darwin--specifically, the "survival of the fittest" and the demotion of man to the status of just another mammal. As a matter of fact, Marx originally wanted to dedicate Das Kapital to Darwin, in tribute to the high regard and gratitude Marx felt toward Darwin and his work; however, Darwin demurred inasmuch as he couldn't read German and didn't want to potentially discredit himself by appearing to endorse ideas and theories he might not agree with.

Whoever doesn't understand the Darwinian roots of Marxism and Nazism doesn't properly understand the origins of twentieth- and twenty-first century totalitarianism (with worse yet to come; let those with eyes to see, see).

I'd also like to say, as a "worthless paleoconservative" myself, that I, too, disagree with my fellow paleocon Patrick Buchanan's thesis in "The Unnecessary War" (as I understand it, anyway; I haven't yet read the book for myself). Nevertheless, I have far more regard for Mr. Buchanan's intellectual powers, integrity, and character than I do for the vain Mr. Hansen, whose every utterance I find must be taken with an accompanying shot of Pepto-Bismol.
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Re: Book Review: Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War

Postby TheIndependent on 09/11/08, 11:21 pm

jnewl wrote:
seabee wrote:
I'd also like to say, as a "worthless paleoconservative" myself, that I, too, disagree with my fellow paleocon Patrick Buchanan's thesis in "The Unnecessary War" (as I understand it, anyway; I haven't yet read the book for myself). Nevertheless, I have far more regard for Mr. Buchanan's intellectual powers, integrity, and character than I do for the vain Mr. Hansen, whose every utterance I find must be taken with an accompanying shot of Pepto-Bismol.


Are you serious? Victor Hansen has more historical knowledge in his pinkie finger than Buchannon has in his whole body.

Buchannon has turned into a vengeful toady since he saw how many people actually buy his BS. He got less votes than Ralph Nader!!


bwahahahaa!! What a loser with a capital L.
"[The Democrats] say that the United States has had its days in the sun, that our nation has passed its zenith.… My fellow citizens, I utterly reject that view."
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Re: Book Review: Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War

Postby seabee on 09/13/08, 11:36 am

jnewl wrote:
seabee wrote:maybe hitler didn't know what hitler was really about. maybe he overdosed on power, who knows. of maybe genocide was his plan all along. if stalin is any indication hitler was just doing what was in vogue at the time, a recurring theme that dates way back in history.


Oh, come on now. Hitler didn't know what he was about? Hitler knew exactly what he was about. Nazi ideology derives specifically from Darwinism by way of Nietzsche. (There are plenty of quotes available to support this.) The Nazi worldview is the deterministic worldview of Marxist materialism sans the allegedly inevitable class warfare. In the Nazis' view (that is to say, Hitler's view, as set out in his book Mein Kampf--My Struggle--which name he adopted from the subtitle of Darwin's Origin of Species), the different races of men represent various stages in the evolution of the human species. Hitler and the Nazis saw themselves as nothing more nor less than rational, clear-eyed scientists doing nature's bidding by eliminating the less successful, inferior strains of humanity, in favor of their own, the successful, superior one, thereby perfecting the species and making it most fit to rule. They were simply exercising (as they saw it) a courageous and manly "Will to Power" in hurrying the natural process of human and social evolution along by making war upon the weak(er) and sickly.

Thus, while Jews were the first racial group who happened to be targeted (and there may well be links to Luther there; I don't know, since I've not made a special study of it), there's no possibility whatsoever that they would have been the last. Moreover, as is well documented, Jews weren't the only people targeted even at the time. Anyone who stood in the way of the Nazis' will was a target, which included the Catholic Church and its clergy, regardless of race, whose principles were diametrically opposed to theirs, gypsies, who were considered mere takers and parasites, etc.

Anyway, the point here is that what you call "in vogue," seabee, has a more rational (and may I say, less idiotic) explanation than some mere nod to fashion or, as Victor Hansen seems to believe, insanity. The reason Stalin, and Communists in general, are/were mass murdering thugs was/is exactly the same reason Hitler was: Marxist political and social principles derive directly from the biological principles set down by Darwin--specifically, the "survival of the fittest" and the demotion of man to the status of just another mammal. As a matter of fact, Marx originally wanted to dedicate Das Kapital to Darwin, in tribute to the high regard and gratitude Marx felt toward Darwin and his work; however, Darwin demurred inasmuch as he couldn't read German and didn't want to potentially discredit himself by appearing to endorse ideas and theories he might not agree with.

Whoever doesn't understand the Darwinian roots of Marxism and Nazism doesn't properly understand the origins of twentieth- and twenty-first century totalitarianism (with worse yet to come; let those with eyes to see, see).

I'd also like to say, as a "worthless paleoconservative" myself, that I, too, disagree with my fellow paleocon Patrick Buchanan's thesis in "The Unnecessary War" (as I understand it, anyway; I haven't yet read the book for myself). Nevertheless, I have far more regard for Mr. Buchanan's intellectual powers, integrity, and character than I do for the vain Mr. Hansen, whose every utterance I find must be taken with an accompanying shot of Pepto-Bismol.


i don't disagree with you entirely but your argument is overly academic -- too removed from the human experience. people don't know what they're actually capable of doing until they are actually doing it. hitler may have "thought" about genocide as a final solution and at many points in his life, but aside from his combat experience he was not a violent person growing up. to our knowledge he never murdered anyone other than himself and possibly eva. no facts point to his having made a decision to commit nationalistically motivated genocide until the decision was made. there were many indications this was possible. many potential outcomes from these same clues into his regime. but it was a regime. hitler never acted alone. and the word vogue is most appropriate. hitler's final solution was as much in response to those who surround him as it was his own twisted idea. very few if any leaders, tyrants included, make decisions in a vacuum. moreover vogue accurately describes hitler's environment of that era less we forget the chronology of genocide. stalin was the first mover on that game board. two sick and twisted tyrants. two sick and twisted resolves. that's the lesson, not how you chose to describe it.
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