MajGenSnowbear wrote:That you call the major tenet of Islam is to overthrow the United States is nonsense.  They are not going to overthrow the government - it would be virtually impossible for them to do so.  Look at this fact:  Muslims are gathering on the streets saying, "Down with America".  Obviously something is wrong with America in the first place.   You know what I am talking about - it's all of the people that the muslims find dumb and of irrelevant opinion - the ones that they use, whether it is to spread the word that Operation Iraqi Freedom needs to end, Muslims are treated unfairly, etc.  If America could figure out how to educate themselves and treat people fairly, either through the word of God, Jesus Christ, etc. maybe we could all get along...remember what the Messiah did say, "Pray for you enemies even though they hate you, because what good would hating them do?"  That was paraphrased by the way.  I think that hating muslims is hard to do, when people that are as dumb as a rock throw the rocks at Republicans, blaming them for being conservative, they don't do anyone any good.

You are right.  The problem is America.  Those 19 Arab Muslims that flew the 4 planes into three buildings and a field in Pennsylvania were doing the right thing.  We should all hold hands and sing Kumbaya while they slit our necks.  That will take care of everything.  

And ignore all those Mullahs inciting their followers to jihad to wage war against the Great Satan and the Little Satan.  Ignore the video of them on tape calling for the violent overthrow of America.  They don't really mean it.  And neither did Hilter.  

We can ignore the Muslim fanatics and they will go away just like Hitler did when we ignored him.  Yeah, that worked out well for the 100 million or so who died in that war.  And it is working for Isreal, right.  Muslim lunatics with nukes are no big threat.

MajGenSnowbear wrote:That you call the major tenet of Islam is to overthrow the United States is nonsense.  They are not going to overthrow the government - it would be virtually impossible for them to do so.  Look at this fact:  Muslims are gathering on the streets saying, "Down with America".  Obviously something is wrong with America in the first place.   You know what I am talking about - it's all of the people that the muslims find dumb and of irrelevant opinion - the ones that they use, whether it is to spread the word that Operation Iraqi Freedom needs to end, Muslims are treated unfairly, etc.  If America could figure out how to educate themselves and treat people fairly, either through the word of God, Jesus Christ, etc. maybe we could all get along...remember what the Messiah did say, "Pray for you enemies even though they hate you, because what good would hating them do?"  That was paraphrased by the way.  I think that hating muslims is hard to do, when people that are as dumb as a rock throw the rocks at Republicans, blaming them for being conservative, they don't do anyone any good.

Case in point:  Ann Coulter:  She writes about hating muslims, but do you know if she is confessing or relaying these sentiments to anyone, through prayer or otherwise?  She's a flamethrower.  She writes books because she is a mover and a shaker.  She shakes things up.  She shakes me up.  But conservatives that are like this and write and talk this way are clearer in the head than the ones throwing the stones out away from AI.  People blame the muslims for 9/11, but we should get over it.  If we had a million man march praising the Middle East for all of our 500 horsepower cars that burn on their petroleum, they might be a little bit happier.  Get the idea?

No. Not really.

I didn't say that THE major tenet of Islam was the overthrow of the U.S.; I suggested that a new religion or organization which DID have this as their major article of faith would not get far.

I'm not really sure I follow your post; but it's pretty clear that you did not visit the site I recommended that describes three major tenets of political Islam: Tawhid, Risalat, and Khilafat.

That the Religion of Islam demands the spread of Islam - and therefore of political Islam and Sharia Law -- is FACT.  You may not want it to be FACT.  You may dislike the idea that it is FACT.  Nevertheless, it was, is and will forever be FACT.  It is also FACT that throughout history, the religion has primarily been spread by violence and conquest.

And if you think that Islamic Sharia Law could never displace a Western government, you haven't been paying attention to the news in Europe.

You state that "If America could figure out how to educate themselves and treat people fairly, maybe we could all get along"

My response is simply this: You could figure out how to educate yourself as to the fact that Islam does not treat people fairly, and that this is the reason we can't get along.  

The resources available on the internet to learn about Islam are numerous; I suggest http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

You also wrote the following "Look at this fact:  Muslims are gathering on the streets saying, "Down with America".  Obviously something is wrong with America in the first place.   You know what I am talking about"

I have no idea what you're talking about.  In fact, I'm really hoping that you mis-stated something, or didn't really mean what you said; because my interpretation is that you feel it is fact that there is "obviously something wrong with America in the first place" BECAUSE "Muslims say 'Down with America".

I hope that this is not what you meant to say because, aside from lacking any logic, it is about the most offensive Un-American, and Anti-American thing I've ever seen posted on this forum.

paleocon wrote:

DecoNservAtiVE wrote:

paleocon wrote:
I agree with you that we cannot ban a religion.  Religion is protected by the Bill of Rights.  Were it only true that Democrats realized that in relation to Christianity.  

But, I do take exception to your last point.  Name 100, or even 10, Muslims that you know personally who are publically willing to condemn the actions of "extremist" Muslims.  I see virtually no empirical evidence over the past 7 years to support this statement.

Also, please clarify your comment on Christian "extremists."  Do you personally know of any Christians who are advocating violence against non-Christians in order to take over one or more governments and impose a Christian theocracy upon the world and launch a "crusade" against non-Christian nations?

I don't think I personally know that many muslims, and if I did I wouldn't name them, but I do know a few of them, I'd say 4 or 5 who I can say with certainty do condem the actions.  

Christian extremeists - Let's start with Ireland.  Catholics and Protestants (christians) both killing eachother over a whole lot of nothing IMO.  And of course there was the actual Crusades, and the Christians that came to the Americas and killed natives if they didn't succumb to Christianity.  Even Christians, who are by and large nowadays a peaceful religion, cannot claim total innocence.

Point 1.  You can't name 10 muslims willing to condemn extremist Muslim teachings.  Got it.  

Point 2.  You obviously have little or no understanding of the violence in Northern Ireland.  It had little to do with religion, or at least Christianity.  Yes, the people of Ireland are nominally Christians.  But the IRA has nothing to do with Christianity.  They were a bunch of communist and anarchists who wanted to control the island.  The UDL and other northern groups ably demonstrated their lack of Christian theology many times over.  But, that violence is in the past.  And it was relatively contained to the island of Ireland.  There were no Irish on either side determined to impose a theocracy on the whole world.  

So, you could not answer the first question and you punted on the second.  Care to try again?

I think I quite aptly covered both.  If I knew 10 muslims personally, chances are 10 would denounce the violence.  I know 4 and all 4 do, but I'm not going to name them, why?  Because I don't believe it fair to them to put their name on something for them.  I would ask, like any journalist, that you give me the benefit of the doubt in not releasing my sources.  
Also, you asked for an instance of Christian extremists and I provided one, a few actually.  It may not have been yesterday, but it happened.  There's also been a couple in the US more recently that I am unable to remember at this time.  Perhaps later it will come to me.  

Either way, the facts are that no religion is completely innocent in the religious violence category.  Extremists are always present to some degree.

DecoNservAtiVE wrote:

paleocon wrote:
Point 1.  You can't name 10 muslims willing to condemn extremist Muslim teachings.  Got it.  

Point 2.  You obviously have little or no understanding of the violence in Northern Ireland.  It had little to do with religion, or at least Christianity.  Yes, the people of Ireland are nominally Christians.  But the IRA has nothing to do with Christianity.  They were a bunch of communist and anarchists who wanted to control the island.  The UDL and other northern groups ably demonstrated their lack of Christian theology many times over.  But, that violence is in the past.  And it was relatively contained to the island of Ireland.  There were no Irish on either side determined to impose a theocracy on the whole world.  

So, you could not answer the first question and you punted on the second.  Care to try again?

I think I quite aptly covered both.  If I knew 10 muslims personally, chances are 10 would denounce the violence.  I know 4 and all 4 do, but I'm not going to name them, why?  Because I don't believe it fair to them to put their name on something for them.  I would ask, like any journalist, that you give me the benefit of the doubt in not releasing my sources.  
Also, you asked for an instance of Christian extremists and I provided one, a few actually.  It may not have been yesterday, but it happened.  There's also been a couple in the US more recently that I am unable to remember at this time.  Perhaps later it will come to me.  

Either way, the facts are that no religion is completely innocent in the religious violence category.  Extremists are always present to some degree.

Well, then we don't share a common language if you think you "aptly" covered both questions.  

You made vague and undefined references to Christian extremists and then claim you provided "a few" when you made mention of one, now resolved conflict.  You make even more vague references to "a couple ...more" conflicts but conveniently can't remember the details.  

Obviously you are a "journalist."  Care to share your "credentials" with those mere mortals who deal in facts?

One word:    Taqiyya

Also, please clarify your comment on Christian "extremists."  Do you personally know of any Christians who are advocating violence against non-Christians in order to take over one or more governments and impose a Christian theocracy upon the world and launch a "crusade" against non-Christian nations?[/quote]

I don't think I personally know that many muslims, and if I did I wouldn't name them, but I do know a few of them, I'd say 4 or 5 who I can say with certainty do condem the actions.  

Christian extremeists - Let's start with Ireland.  Catholics and Protestants (christians) both killing eachother over a whole lot of nothing IMO.  And of course there was the actual Crusades, and the Christians that came to the Americas and killed natives if they didn't succumb to Christianity.  Even Christians, who are by and large nowadays a peaceful religion, cannot claim total innocence.[/quote]

Point 1.  You can't name 10 muslims willing to condemn extremist Muslim teachings.  Got it.  

Point 2.  You obviously have little or no understanding of the violence in Northern Ireland.  It had little to do with religion, or at least Christianity.  Yes, the people of Ireland are nominally Christians.  But the IRA has nothing to do with Christianity.  They were a bunch of communist and anarchists who wanted to control the island.  The UDL and other northern groups ably demonstrated their lack of Christian theology many times over.  But, that violence is in the past.  And it was relatively contained to the island of Ireland.  There were no Irish on either side determined to impose a theocracy on the whole world.  

So, you could not answer the first question and you punted on the second.  Care to try again?[/quote]

I think I quite aptly covered both.  If I knew 10 muslims personally, chances are 10 would denounce the violence.  I know 4 and all 4 do, but I'm not going to name them, why?  Because I don't believe it fair to them to put their name on something for them.  I would ask, like any journalist, that you give me the benefit of the doubt in not releasing my sources.  
Also, you asked for an instance of Christian extremists and I provided one, a few actually.  It may not have been yesterday, but it happened.  There's also been a couple in the US more recently that I am unable to remember at this time.  Perhaps later it will come to me.  

Either way, the facts are that no religion is completely innocent in the religious violence category.  Extremists are always present to some degree.[/quote]

Are you really this afraid?  Like you, I have known some Muslims, in fact, I knew one with a Magna Cum Laude that was present with me for lunch on 9/11.  We were in Boston and he was very, very pale.  He was also nervous and afraid.  Things like 9/11 do not sit well with anyone, race, creed or color.  Just because Muslims gather on the street and denounce America does not mean they are taking over like the Nazi's did.  Besides, Israel really can take care of itself as long as there are no nuclear devices going off.  They could smash Iran like bugs under a C-130's wheel.  The problem is they (muslims) are reactionary, and they strike fear into anyone because of this.  Another thing, since 811 how far has Islam made roads into Christianity?  Sure, they demand the spread of Islam, but Christians are having none of this, and we might as well give the Indonesians something to do with religion, it's better than having a bunch of savages out there...really, I wish they would have been Christian, but something tells me they were more likely to be proselytized by muslims.

Are you really this afraid?  Like you, I have known some Muslims, in fact, I knew one with a Magna Cum Laude that was present with me for lunch on 9/11.  We were in Boston and he was very, very pale.  He was also nervous and afraid.  Things like 9/11 do not sit well with anyone, race, creed or color.  Just because Muslims gather on the street and denounce America does not mean they are taking over like the Nazi's did.  Besides, Israel really can take care of itself as long as there are no nuclear devices going off.  They could smash Iran like bugs under a C-130's wheel.  The problem is they (muslims) are reactionary, and they strike fear into anyone because of this.  Another thing, since 811 how far has Islam made roads into Christianity?  Sure, they demand the spread of Islam, but Christians are having none of this, and we might as well give the Indonesians something to do with religion, it's better than having a bunch of savages out there...really, I wish they would have been Christian, but something tells me they were more likely to be proselytized by muslims.

No, I am not afraid.  I am just stunned by your ignorance of the facts.  The fact that a Muslim you know is a Magna Cum Laude has nothing to do with anything.  And things like 9/11 made Palestinian Muslims literally dance in the streets to celebrate the Muslim attack on Americans on that day.  I guess you don't remember that little anti-American display from that day.  

The problem with Muslim extremists is that they want to drag the world back to the 7th century and build the caliphate.  The only problem is they don't care if they drag the world into a nuclear holocaust doing so.  Or don't you listen to the President of Iran?  And if the Muslim faith didn't promise and guarantee to kill anyone who converts from Islam to any other faith I suppose we would have lots of Christians in Indonesia explaining Christianity to people there.  And then they would have the chance to freely choose.     

You live in a world of denial.  Get your facts straight, answer my first two questions and then we can possibly continue with some form of reasonable discourse.

Ahmedinejad, The "President" of Iran, is really an idiot dicatator whom has had delusions of the Nazi's and their supposed non-involvement in the Holocaust.  The Iranians put this idot puppet up there to step on every person's toes so that America would be afraid.  Israel would roll over Iran in a 2 weeks.  Get a grip.  Either that or go back to sleep.

Taqiyya, dhimmi.

Taqiyya, dhimmi.

Taqiyya, dhimmi.

Taqiyya

MajGenSnowbear wrote:Ahmedinejad, The "President" of Iran, is really an idiot dicatator whom has had delusions of the Nazi's and their supposed non-involvement in the Holocaust.  The Iranians put this idot puppet up there to step on every person's toes so that America would be afraid.  Israel would roll over Iran in a 2 weeks.  Get a grip.  Either that or go back to sleep.

The only problem is this lunatic has access to plans for nuclear weapons and virtually unlimited wealth.  Pakistan managed to build a bomb and it will only be a short time before Iran copies Pakistan and builds one.  The major problem is this lunatic and the theocracy behind him intend to use it on American and Israel.  These people believe what they write and say just like Hitler believed what he wrote and said.  I guess liberals are always shocked by the existence of evil especially just after it attacks them.  I am not the one who is asleep.

Just remember that Chamberlain and company kept telling us that Hitler was not a threat to world peace right up to 1 September 1939.